Mind or minds

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Age
Posts: 2769
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Mind or minds

Post by Age » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:59 pm

Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:46 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:39 pm
I think we agree from different brains come different conceptions. The above just being another conception. If that is what that brain has conceived up, then that is fine with me. However, if the words from that brain start BELIEVING that that conceived up idea is true and real, that is when I will question it, and SHOW this BELIEF.
See, this is problematic for me.

You already seem to have conceptualised "truth" and "realness" as things that happen outside of brains.

How do you determine if your concepts are true and real?
Once again, WHEN EVERY thing is in agreement.

Logik
Posts: 4048
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Mind or minds

Post by Logik » Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:02 pm

Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:57 pm
But i have already answered them and have uncovered the answer that fits together perfectly and which could be in agreement with EVERY thing.
How did you uncover that the answer is in agreement with EVERY thing when you haven't even asked me if I agree?
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:57 pm
A few posts back you admit to having no good answer to what the mind is, yet still use terms like 'your mind'. Are you at least able to answer the question Who am 'I'?

Then I will have some idea of what you are talking about when you use words like 'your' in relation to some thing else like 'mind' or 'brain' for example.
I also use terms like software and hardware. Which are synonymous with mind and brain.

"I" am the mind/software referring to itself.

Very few thing in the universe practice linguistic and conceptual self-reference. We are special that way.
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:57 pm
Saying some thing like: I am age, or, I am logik, does NOT answer the question 'Who am 'I'?'
I am perfectly happy and satisfied with the answer. Why aren't you?
Last edited by Logik on Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:07 pm, edited 6 times in total.

Logik
Posts: 4048
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Mind or minds

Post by Logik » Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:02 pm

Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:59 pm
Once again, WHEN EVERY thing is in agreement.
How would you determine when EVERY thing is in agreement?

How would you determine when SOME thing is in disagreement?

Age
Posts: 2769
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Mind or minds

Post by Age » Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:08 pm

Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:15 pm


You said that you have drawn a distinction between "self" and "universe".
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:48 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:44 pm
But was it 'me' that said that i have drawn such a distinction or was it the one labeled 'logik'?

If it was 'me', then WHERE and WHEN did I draw that distinction?
You, Age, drew the distinction.

Where: On this very forum.

When: Saturday, January 5th 2019. At 11:16am GMT
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:16 pm
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:07 pm
Lets start with this question: do you have a notion of "self"?

You. Age. The human.
Yes.
WHAT???

I said, "Yes", in regards to a question about do i have a notion of 'self'?

Then you said that I said that I have drawn a distinction between "self" and "universe".

I asked you if it was me who had drawn that distinction, and if you believe so, then write WHERE and WHEN i had supposedly done this. The only thing you have written WHERE and WHEN is WHERE and WHEN I said that i have a notion of self. That is NOT, and I will repeat, NOT drawing a distinction between 'self' and 'Universe'.

Logik
Posts: 4048
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Mind or minds

Post by Logik » Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:12 pm

Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:08 pm
WHAT???

I said, "Yes", in regards to a question about do i have a notion of 'self'?

Then you said that I said that I have drawn a distinction between "self" and "universe".
Logical induction and process of elimination

Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:08 pm
I asked you if it was me who had drawn that distinction, and if you believe so, then write WHERE and WHEN i had supposedly done this. The only thing you have written WHERE and WHEN is WHERE and WHEN I said that i have a notion of self. That is NOT, and I will repeat, NOT drawing a distinction between 'self' and 'Universe'.
It is clear from our conversation that you have a notion of "the universe".
You also confirmed that you have a notion of "self".

Do you consider the "self" and "the universe" the same thing; or different things?

If you draw no distinction then why do you need two words for the same thing?

Age
Posts: 2769
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Mind or minds

Post by Age » Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:18 pm

Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:02 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:57 pm
But i have already answered them and have uncovered the answer that fits together perfectly and which could be in agreement with EVERY thing.
How did you uncover that the answer is in agreement with EVERY thing when you haven't even asked me if I agree?
By uncovering thee KNOWING within EVERY one.
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:57 pm
A few posts back you admit to having no good answer to what the mind is, yet still use terms like 'your mind'. Are you at least able to answer the question Who am 'I'?

Then I will have some idea of what you are talking about when you use words like 'your' in relation to some thing else like 'mind' or 'brain' for example.
I also use terms like software and hardware. Which are synonymous with mind and brain.

"I" am the mind/software referring to itself. [/quote]

So before when you wrote 'I' am logik, and, now you write 'I' am the mind/software referring to itself, then which one is the 'I'?

Also, how does one "update" them self?
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:02 pm
Very few thing in the universe practice linguistic and conceptual self-reference. We are special that way.
Who/what is the 'we' you are referring to here.

And, who/what are the "other" very few things in the Universe that practice linguistic and conceptual self-reference?
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:02 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:57 pm
Saying some thing like: I am age, or, I am logik, does NOT answer the question 'Who am 'I'?'
I am perfectly happy and satisfied with the answer. Why aren't you?
If you are perfectly happy AND satisfied with the answers that you have, and they ALL fit perfectly together to form a crystal clear picture of ALL-THERE-IS for you, and thus you are NOT searching for any more of these type of answers, then great.

Also, it is NOT about me being happy and satisfied or NOT happy and NOT satisfied with the answers that YOU arrived at. I just said YOUR answers are NOT in agreement nor obviously could NOT be in agreement with EVERY one.

Age
Posts: 2769
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Mind or minds

Post by Age » Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:23 pm

Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:02 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:59 pm
Once again, WHEN EVERY thing is in agreement.
How would you determine when EVERY thing is in agreement?
When absolutely EVERY thing is in agreement.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:02 pm
How would you determine when SOME thing is in disagreement?
When that SOME thing is coming from a individual perspective and NOT EVERY thing could agree with it.

Logik
Posts: 4048
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Mind or minds

Post by Logik » Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:26 pm

Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:18 pm
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:02 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:57 pm
But i have already answered them and have uncovered the answer that fits together perfectly and which could be in agreement with EVERY thing.
How did you uncover that the answer is in agreement with EVERY thing when you haven't even asked me if I agree?
By uncovering thee KNOWING within EVERY one.
OK, bu until you ask everyone and every thing - how would you know if you are all in agreement?
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:57 pm
So before when you wrote 'I' am logik, and, now you write 'I' am the mind/software referring to itself, then which one is the 'I'?
All of them.
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:57 pm
Also, how does one "update" them self?
Yesterday I didn't like chocolate icecream. Today I do.

Mind updated.
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:57 pm
Who/what is the 'we' you are referring to here.
We the animals who self-identify as humans.
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:57 pm
And, who/what are the "other" very few things in the Universe that practice linguistic and conceptual self-reference?
A few primates.
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:57 pm
I just said YOUR answers are NOT in agreement nor obviously could NOT be in agreement with EVERY one.
Because some people want to agree. And some people don't.

What do you do with those who don't want to agree?
Last edited by Logik on Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Logik
Posts: 4048
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Mind or minds

Post by Logik » Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:27 pm

Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:23 pm
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:02 pm
How would you determine when EVERY thing is in agreement?
When absolutely EVERY thing is in agreement.
That's circular logic.

Do you agree or disagree with Saturn right now?

Age
Posts: 2769
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Mind or minds

Post by Age » Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:32 pm

Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:12 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:08 pm
WHAT???

I said, "Yes", in regards to a question about do i have a notion of 'self'?

Then you said that I said that I have drawn a distinction between "self" and "universe".
Logical induction and process of elimination
But you NOT necessarily arriving at the RIGHT conclusion.

All that it takes to get the absolute RIGHT conclusive answer is to just ask the RIGHT clarifying questions.

Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:08 pm
I asked you if it was me who had drawn that distinction, and if you believe so, then write WHERE and WHEN i had supposedly done this. The only thing you have written WHERE and WHEN is WHERE and WHEN I said that i have a notion of self. That is NOT, and I will repeat, NOT drawing a distinction between 'self' and 'Universe'.
It is clear from our conversation that you have a notion of "the universe".
You also confirmed that you have a notion of "self".[/quote]

Yes correct.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:12 pm
Do you consider the "self" and "the universe" the same thing; or different things?
As I have already pointed out and/or alluded to, to UNDERSTAND My answer to this question you would first NEED to understand:
What about the other distinctions that I have also drawn? For example:
who the 'i' is.
what the 'i' is.
Who the 'I' is.
What the 'I' is.
What the 'Universe' is.
How the 'i' and the 'I' are, and work, in relation to the Universe.
How the 'i' and the 'I' work in relation to each other.
And the many upon many other things, FIRST.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:12 pm
If you draw no distinction then why do you need two words for the same thing?
But I have NOT yet even implied that I draw NO distinction.

Logik
Posts: 4048
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Mind or minds

Post by Logik » Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:35 pm

Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:32 pm
But you NOT necessarily arriving at the RIGHT conclusion.
Are you are saying that I reached an incorrect conclusion?
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:32 pm
All that it takes to get the absolute RIGHT conclusive answer is to just ask the RIGHT clarifying questions.
I did. I asked the clarifying question: Do you have a notion of "self"?

I asked that question because I was not sure if you self-identify as The Universe.

In answering the question, you confirmed for me that you do not. But in case I made an error in reasoning then let me ask a different question.

Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:32 pm
But I have NOT yet even implied that I draw NO distinction.
Are you The Universe?

Age
Posts: 2769
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Mind or minds

Post by Age » Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:47 pm

Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:26 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:18 pm
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:02 pm

How did you uncover that the answer is in agreement with EVERY thing when you haven't even asked me if I agree?
By uncovering thee KNOWING within EVERY one.
OK, bu until you ask everyone and every thing - how would you know if you are all in agreement?
Within EVERY body, there is a KNOWING. Once one has delved deep enough into them self, through True and Full Honesty, Openness, and seriously Wanting to change, for the better, then this KNOWING is revealed, or uncovered. Once this has been found, dis-covered, and fully un-covered, then the connection WITH, and FOR, absolutely EVERY thing is realized. This CONNECTION and KNOWING UNIFIES EVERY thing as One, then being able to LOOK and SEE from this One there is NO need to ask any one. Thee one and only absolute Truth is just realized and KNOWN.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:26 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:57 pm
So before when you wrote 'I' am logik, and, now you write 'I' am the mind/software referring to itself, then which one is the 'I'?
All of them.
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:57 pm
Also, how does one "update" them self?
Yesterday I didn't like chocolate icecream. Today I do.

Mind updated.
Is that the same 'mind/you/I' that does NOT have a good answer for what the 'mind' is, a few posts back?

I suppose that 'i', 'mind', 'you', could have just made an update since that post, that is; until the next update is made.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:26 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:57 pm
Who/what is the 'we' you are referring to here.
We the animals who self-identify as humans.
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:57 pm
And, who/what are the "other" very few things in the Universe that practice linguistic and conceptual self-reference?
A few primates.
So, some are more evolved then "others" are?
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:26 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:57 pm
I just said YOUR answers are NOT in agreement nor obviously could NOT be in agreement with EVERY one.
Because some people want to agree. And some people don't.

What do you do with those who don't want to agree?
That is WHY I have already explained, through the use of the word 'could', that this is depended upon 'could', and NOT 'would' nor 'want'.

Because the way the brain, and BELIEF system, work together they would prefer to just express, "I do NOT agree", then change (or "update" some might say) nor have to admit that they are wrong.

Age
Posts: 2769
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Mind or minds

Post by Age » Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:52 pm

Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:27 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:23 pm
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:02 pm
How would you determine when EVERY thing is in agreement?
When absolutely EVERY thing is in agreement.
That's circular logic.
Some times some human beings have a tendency to just respond to what is obviously just a plain old very simple and easy FACT to understand, as "That is circular logic".

Some might even suggest and say that this could just well be one of those times.

If I am asked; How would I determine when EVERY thing is in agreement? Then do NOT expect any thing much more than a truly Open and Honest answer like: When absolutely EVERY thing is in agreement. Because you will NOT get much more.

If you want to SEE it as circular, then so be it. Some times life works circular, and through cycles.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:27 pm
Do you agree or disagree with Saturn right now?
In regards to WHAT exactly?

Logik
Posts: 4048
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Mind or minds

Post by Logik » Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:53 pm

Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:52 pm
When absolutely EVERY thing is in agreement. Because you will NOT get much more.
I am happy to accept that you can't put it into words, but I do not accept that you yourself can't determine when you agree or disagree with some thing.

Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:52 pm
In regards to WHAT exactly?
Everything.

You said that if your beliefs are "true" and "real" then EVERY thing will agree.
Do you agree with Saturn?

Age
Posts: 2769
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Mind or minds

Post by Age » Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:02 pm

Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:35 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:32 pm
But you NOT necessarily arriving at the RIGHT conclusion.
Are you are saying that I reached an incorrect conclusion?
No. Did it appear that way?

I now just noticed that I left out the 'are' word, in between the 'you' and the 'NOT' words, so this could have obviously caused some sort of misconception and/or misinterpretation.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:35 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:32 pm
All that it takes to get the absolute RIGHT conclusive answer is to just ask the RIGHT clarifying questions.
I did. I asked the clarifying question: Do you have a notion of "self"?
Asking do I have a notion of 'self' is NOT a RIGHT clarifying question that will get you to the RIGHT answer that you were seeking.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:35 pm
I asked that question because I was not sure if you self-identify as The Universe.
Well to me this would have been a much closer to getting the RIGHT answer, RIGHT clarifying question.

Just asking if I have a notion of 'self' will NEVER get you any closer to you KNOWING if i self-identify as the Universe. The BEST, QUICKEST, SIMPLEST, and EASIEST way to get to KNOW that answer would have been to ask this very simple and basic easy clarifying question instead.

In answering the question, you confirmed for me that you do not. But in case I made an error in reasoning then let me ask a different question.

Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:35 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:32 pm
But I have NOT yet even implied that I draw NO distinction.
Are you The Universe?
No.

But once again this type of question is NOT really getting you much closer to WHAT it is that you are LOOKING FOR.

I have already explained WHY in two previous posts, written within a few hour time period.

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