Mind or minds

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Logik
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Re: Mind or minds

Post by Logik » Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:38 pm

Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:36 pm
To determine this, Are you using the word 'age' here, in reference to a person, a human being, an entity, a name given to what is sometimes called "time passing by", just three random letters picked to denote an author, or some one, or some thing, or some thing else?
I am referring to you. You - the entity which claims to have drawn a distinctions between "self" and "universe".
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:21 pm
This raises at least two questions:
'Age' is just a name, with three characters, literally used as a username, for a set of differing thoughts appearing as words on a screen in front of you.
I am using the word "Age" because this is how you have labeled yourself.
And it's a convenient label for referring to that part which you have identified as "self".

I am using "Age" to mean "Your self which is distinct from the Universe".
I am using "Logik" to mean "My self which is distinct from the Universe".

Age
Posts: 3611
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Mind or minds

Post by Age » Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:41 pm

Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:27 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:16 pm
Well 'you' are the one who came up with the word 'certain', in relation to some thing that was obviously NOT a certainty in the first place.

'Certainty' lays within KNOWING, and, 'uncertainty' lays withing THINKING.

Now, WHERE does KNOWING, and, THINKING lay? Hint, it is NOT necessarily the exact same place.
They are not exactly in the same place, but they are approximately in the same place - both take place in minds.
Whenever the word 'mind' and/or 'minds' is used, then I wonder what do 'you' MEAN when you use the word 'mind' and/or 'minds'?
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:27 pm
So we can say that knowing and thinking are local to brains.
That is what YOU say.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:27 pm
Also. That's not true.
I know what I know. There are at least 10 planets in the Solar systems.
And I know what I don't know. I don't know how many planets there are in the solar systems

In this scale of importance. How much does this really matter?
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:27 pm
Different kinds of knowledge.
Yes, true. They are VERY, VERY, VERY, different kinds of knowledge. AND EXTREMELY different from the KNOWLEDGE that REALLY matters.

Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Mind or minds

Post by Logik » Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:44 pm

Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:41 pm
Whenever the word 'mind' and/or 'minds' is used, then I wonder what do 'you' MEAN when you use the word 'mind' and/or 'minds'?
Sadly I have no good answers for you. We know that the brain is an amazing machine.

We can take some parts of it and you lose your ability to speak, but not think. Then within a few months your ability to speak comes back.
So clearly the brain can restore some of its functionality. And some it can't.

Is my mind the same as your mind? Maybe. Maybe not. Could we ever agree on this? I don't know.
As I think of it all as a Turing machine - my brain is the hardware my mind is the software.

My brain is the thing I can't change. My mind is the thing I can.

Do we have to agree on what the mind is, or can we leave it aside?
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:41 pm
Yes, true. They are VERY, VERY, VERY, different kinds of knowledge. AND EXTREMELY different from the KNOWLEDGE that REALLY matters.
Like I said: the questions never stop.

How do you determine which knowledge matters and which knowledge doesn't matter?
Last edited by Logik on Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Age
Posts: 3611
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Mind or minds

Post by Age » Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:58 pm

Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:30 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:29 pm
LOOKING AT things from the Mind is HOW to LOOK AT the 'territory', or what IS, using other things except for the senses and the brain of the human body.
My conception of the mind is a Turing machine. It answers yes or no questions.
EVERY person's CONCEPTION of the Mind can be so wildly and vastly different, as has been proven here, just in this thread, let alone in this forum. But learning and understanding what the Mind Truly IS, will come about, soon enough.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:30 pm
Where do the questions come from? My curiosity - and don't ask me what "curiosity" is because I don't know. It's like hunger and thirst.

A feeling.
I would say that was a pretty good description of WHAT 'curiosity' IS.

Thirst and hunger are things NEEDED for a human body to continue surviving. Without thirst and hunger a body will die. This thirst and hunger for LEARNING, thus leading to DISCOVERING, and then thus to KNOWING, which eventually leads to WISDOM, and so becoming WISER is built into the dna of the human being, and what allows human beings to completely surpass all other animals in having the ability to LEARN, UNDERSTAND, and REASON absolutely EVERY thing. And, this ABILITY is WHY human beings have created what they have so far, and, WHY they WILL create what they SOON ENOUGH WILL.

It is said that 'curiosity killed the cat', this could be because 'curiosity' will eventually lead to the demise of human beings as, and when, they evolve into the next stage of evolution. Just like the passing away of whatever human beings evolved from, happened, so will the passing away of human beings, happen, when they evolve into the much greater intelligent Being that they are actually becoming. With TRUE Self-realization comes a much more intelligent BEing.

Although it could be argued that 'curiosity' has led human beings down this path of destruction that they are on now, it will be because of this same instinctual 'curiosity' within ALL human children that human beings WILL NOT kill themselves off but WILL evolve into what they WILL.

Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Mind or minds

Post by Logik » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:01 pm

Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:58 pm
EVERY person's CONCEPTION of the Mind can be so wildly and vastly different, as has been proven here, just in this thread, let alone in this forum. But learning and understanding what the Mind Truly IS, will come about, soon enough.
Here is a universal theoretical and Platonic conception. The brain is the hardware on which the mind runs.

If the mind is software - then you can update it.
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:58 pm
It is said that 'curiosity killed the cat'
Old age and curiosity both kill the cat. The cat's destiny is somewhat pre-determined.

Age
Posts: 3611
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Mind or minds

Post by Age » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:08 pm

Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:32 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:30 pm
When, what is in question, could be in agreement with EVERY one/thing.
The questions never stop. There is always another one. And another one. And another one.

And another one.
But if some thing is in agreement with EVERY thing, then OBVIOUSLY there is NOTHING more to be questioned in regards to THAT thing.

However, if an eternal/infinite Universe is NOT big enough to arouse curiosity and thus more questions, then I do NOT know what will.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:32 pm
Since you have introduced the criterion of "agreement" - how would you determine if you and the universe agree?
HOW come when I write things like: When EVERY one/thing is agreement, then that IS thee Truth. In other words IF there is NO thing in disagreement, then THEREFORE, thee Universe MUST agree, and be in agreement, also. HOW can that be misinterpreted or misunderstood in any way? I really do NOT see how it could be. For years now I have been writing similar as simplistic as this but for some reason this seems to TRULY bewilder human beings. I do NOT yet see how I could write it any more simpler than this.

WHEN, and IF, EVERY THING COULD BE IN AGREEMENT, THEN THAT IS OBVIOUSLY HOW THEE AGREEMENT IS DETERMINED.

Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Mind or minds

Post by Logik » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:15 pm

Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:08 pm
But if some thing is in agreement with EVERY thing, then OBVIOUSLY there is NOTHING more to be questioned in regards to THAT thing.
Is that true?

You said that you have drawn a distinction between "self" and "universe".

Do you agree that you and the universe are the same?
Do you agree that you and the universe are different?
Last edited by Logik on Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Age
Posts: 3611
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Mind or minds

Post by Age » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:17 pm

Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:38 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:36 pm
To determine this, Are you using the word 'age' here, in reference to a person, a human being, an entity, a name given to what is sometimes called "time passing by", just three random letters picked to denote an author, or some one, or some thing, or some thing else?
I am referring to you. You - the entity which claims to have drawn a distinctions between "self" and "universe".
What about the other distinctions that I have also drawn? For example:
who the 'i' is.
what the 'i' is.
Who the 'I' is.
What the 'I' is.
What the 'Universe' is.
How the 'i' and the 'I' are, and work, in relation to the Universe.
How the 'i' and the 'I' work in relation to each other.
And the many upon many other things?
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:38 pm
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:21 pm
This raises at least two questions:
'Age' is just a name, with three characters, literally used as a username, for a set of differing thoughts appearing as words on a screen in front of you.
I am using the word "Age" because this is how you have labeled yourself.
And it's a convenient label for referring to that part which you have identified as "self".

I am using "Age" to mean "Your self which is distinct from the Universe".
I am using "Logik" to mean "My self which is distinct from the Universe".
Think about who/what the 'your' is in relation to the term 'your self', and, who what the 'self' is in relation to the term 'your self'. Things can get become very confusing very quickly. There is an ACTUAL reason WHY human beings are still unable to answer the question 'Who am 'I'? yet.

Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Mind or minds

Post by Logik » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:19 pm

Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:17 pm
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:38 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:36 pm
To determine this, Are you using the word 'age' here, in reference to a person, a human being, an entity, a name given to what is sometimes called "time passing by", just three random letters picked to denote an author, or some one, or some thing, or some thing else?
I am referring to you. You - the entity which claims to have drawn a distinctions between "self" and "universe".
What about the other distinctions that I have also drawn? For example:
who the 'i' is.
what the 'i' is.
Who the 'I' is.
What the 'I' is.
What the 'Universe' is.
How the 'i' and the 'I' are, and work, in relation to the Universe.
How the 'i' and the 'I' work in relation to each other.
And the many upon many other things?
Those are questions you can answer for yourself.

I have no insight into your mind.
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:17 pm
Think about who/what the 'your' is in relation to the term 'your self', and, who what the 'self' is in relation to the term 'your self'. Things can get become very confusing very quickly. There is an ACTUAL reason WHY human beings are still unable to answer the question 'Who am 'I'? yet.
Are you thinking about my "I" in relation to itself or my I in relation to yourself?

What do you mean? I have answered the question "Who am I?". You have answered it too.

I am Logik.
You are Age.

Do you not like the answer?

Age
Posts: 3611
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Mind or minds

Post by Age » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:28 pm

Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:44 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:41 pm
Whenever the word 'mind' and/or 'minds' is used, then I wonder what do 'you' MEAN when you use the word 'mind' and/or 'minds'?
Sadly I have no good answers for you.
Fair enough.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:44 pm
We know that the brain is an amazing machine.
Yes I could NOT agree more.

Self-realization and being able to KNOW the answer to the question 'Who am 'I'?' could NOT have come about with the truly amazing machine, that is; the human brain.

We can take some parts of it and you lose your ability to speak, but not think. Then within a few months your ability to speak comes back.
So clearly the brain can restore some of its functionality. And some it can't.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:44 pm
Is my mind the same as your mind? Maybe. Maybe not. Could we ever agree on this? I don't know.
To me to question if 'my' 'mind' even exists or not without even KNOWING 'Who 'I' am' is first and also especially after just admitting that one has NO GOOD ANSWERS to WHAT they mean when they use the word 'mind'.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:44 pm
As I think of it all as a Turing machine - my brain is the hardware my mind is the software.
You are FREE to THINK whatever you like about any thing you like. But if what you think does NOT yet form a perfect 'big' picture of ALL-THERE-IS, then I suggest maybe NOT being so sure of ones own perceptions of things.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:44 pm
My brain is the thing I can't change. My mind is the thing I can.
Are you absolutely 100% sure of this?

And, who/what is the 'my' in relation to 'my brain' and 'my mind'?
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:44 pm
Do we have to agree on what the mind is, or can we leave it aside?
We do NOT have to agree on any thing, whatsoever at all.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:44 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:41 pm
Yes, true. They are VERY, VERY, VERY, different kinds of knowledge. AND EXTREMELY different from the KNOWLEDGE that REALLY matters.
Like I said: the questions never stop.
And that is the BEAUTY of curiosity, as long as the questions never stop, then so will ANSWERS never stop coming to light also.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:44 pm
How do you determine which knowledge matters and which knowledge doesn't matter?
The KNOWLEDGE that IS in agreement with AL,L matters. The rest is just an individual perception of things, if this really matters or not will be determined later.

Age
Posts: 3611
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Mind or minds

Post by Age » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:39 pm

Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:01 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:58 pm
EVERY person's CONCEPTION of the Mind can be so wildly and vastly different, as has been proven here, just in this thread, let alone in this forum. But learning and understanding what the Mind Truly IS, will come about, soon enough.
Here is a universal theoretical and Platonic conception. The brain is the hardware on which the mind runs.
I think we agree from different brains come different conceptions. The above just being another conception. If that is what that brain has conceived up, then that is fine with me. However, if the words from that brain start BELIEVING that that conceived up idea is true and real, that is when I will question it, and SHOW this BELIEF.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:01 pm
If the mind is software - then you can update it.
who/what is the 'you', in the 'you' that can update the 'mind' the software, of the 'brain' the hardware? And, HOW can that 'you' do the "update"?

There is a far quicker, simpler, and more easily understood version of things, but without curiosity this will NOT be learned nor understood.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:01 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:58 pm
It is said that 'curiosity killed the cat'
Old age and curiosity both kill the cat. The cat's destiny is somewhat pre-determined.
But to ASSUME that human beings will die of old age, or curiosity, before they evolve into some thing is just another example of ASSUMING some thing BEFORE any clarification took place.

Age
Posts: 3611
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Mind or minds

Post by Age » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:44 pm

Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:15 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:08 pm
But if some thing is in agreement with EVERY thing, then OBVIOUSLY there is NOTHING more to be questioned in regards to THAT thing.
Is that true?

You said that you have drawn a distinction between "self" and "universe".
But was it 'me' that said that i have drawn such a distinction or was it the one labeled 'logik'?

If it was 'me', then WHERE and WHEN did I draw that distinction?
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:15 pm
Do you agree that you and the universe are the same?
Do you agree that you and the universe are different?
Until you can show that you KNOW or have some idea of who/what the 'you' is, and, who/what the 'Universe' is, then there is no use really answering this.

Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Mind or minds

Post by Logik » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:46 pm

Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:39 pm
I think we agree from different brains come different conceptions. The above just being another conception. If that is what that brain has conceived up, then that is fine with me. However, if the words from that brain start BELIEVING that that conceived up idea is true and real, that is when I will question it, and SHOW this BELIEF.
See, this is problematic for me.

You already seem to have conceptualised "truth" and "realness" as things that happen outside of brains.

How do you determine if your concepts are true and real?

Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Mind or minds

Post by Logik » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:48 pm

Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:44 pm
But was it 'me' that said that i have drawn such a distinction or was it the one labeled 'logik'?

If it was 'me', then WHERE and WHEN did I draw that distinction?
You, Age, drew the distinction.

Where: On this very forum.

When: Saturday, January 5th 2019. At 11:16am GMT
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:16 pm
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:07 pm
Lets start with this question: do you have a notion of "self"?

You. Age. The human.
Yes.

Age
Posts: 3611
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Mind or minds

Post by Age » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:57 pm

Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:19 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:17 pm
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:38 pm

I am referring to you. You - the entity which claims to have drawn a distinctions between "self" and "universe".
What about the other distinctions that I have also drawn? For example:
who the 'i' is.
what the 'i' is.
Who the 'I' is.
What the 'I' is.
What the 'Universe' is.
How the 'i' and the 'I' are, and work, in relation to the Universe.
How the 'i' and the 'I' work in relation to each other.
And the many upon many other things?
Those are questions you can answer for yourself.
But i have already answered them and have uncovered the answer that fits together perfectly and which could be in agreement with EVERY thing.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:19 pm
I have no insight into your mind.
A few posts back you admit to having no good answer to what the mind is, yet still use terms like 'your mind'. Are you at least able to answer the question Who am 'I'?

Then I will have some idea of what you are talking about when you use words like 'your' in relation to some thing else like 'mind' or 'brain' for example.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:19 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:17 pm
Think about who/what the 'your' is in relation to the term 'your self', and, who what the 'self' is in relation to the term 'your self'. Things can get become very confusing very quickly. There is an ACTUAL reason WHY human beings are still unable to answer the question 'Who am 'I'? yet.
Are you thinking about my "I" in relation to itself or my I in relation to yourself?
Wow after ALL of these years, some one with some curiosity actually left within them has decided to ask me what I am actually thinking/referring to.

Thank you, it really is much appreciated.

To me there are two human beings responding to each other. These are 'me's' or little 'i's', this is who we THINK we are. But there is only one 'I', which is Who we REALLY ARE.

What do you mean? I have answered the question "Who am I?". You have answered it too.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:19 pm
I am Logik.
You are Age.
I NEVER said that.

Saying some thing like: I am age, or, I am logik, does NOT answer the question 'Who am 'I'?'

I SAID some thing similar to 'age' is just three letters that forms a word that is literally just a name-used as a user-name, which is the label given for these thoughts being expressed here.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:19 pm
Do you not like the answer?
It is NEVER about liking or not liking an answer. IF an answer does NOT fit in perfectly with other answers to form a big perfect picture of things, then I just remain OPEN and keep LOOKING.

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