Universe can't be infinite.

So what's really going on?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by Logik » Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:27 pm

devans99 wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:12 pm
It would be an empty universe with zero particles. Such a thing could feasibly exist.
devans99 wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:12 pm
That nothingness is nothing so its incorrect to say it goes goes on forever - Its has no spacial dimension to go on forever.
So it's incorrect to say that it goes on forever, but it's correct to say that something without spatial or spacial dimensions exists?

devans99
Posts: 158
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:21 pm

Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by devans99 » Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:45 pm

Logik wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:27 pm
devans99 wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:12 pm
It would be an empty universe with zero particles. Such a thing could feasibly exist.
devans99 wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:12 pm
That nothingness is nothing so its incorrect to say it goes goes on forever - Its has no spacial dimension to go on forever.
So it's incorrect to say that it goes on forever, but it's correct to say that something without spatial or spacial dimensions exists?
By the presence of something we can infer the possibility of nothing. It's more like absence of existence is possible. We need something to represent absence of existence and that is zero.

Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by Logik » Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:48 pm

devans99 wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:45 pm
By the presence of something we can infer the possibility of nothing.
Maybe you can. I can't. I've never seen "nothing".
devans99 wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:45 pm
It's more like absence of existence is possible. We need something to represent absence of existence and that is zero.
I see! So we are dealing with the representation of existence, not existence itself?

Would you say that the representation of non-existence exists?

devans99
Posts: 158
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:21 pm

Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by devans99 » Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:55 pm

Logik wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:48 pm
devans99 wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:45 pm
By the presence of something we can infer the possibility of nothing.
Maybe you can. I can't. I've never seen "nothing".
devans99 wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:45 pm
It's more like absence of existence is possible. We need something to represent absence of existence and that is zero.
I see! So we are dealing with representation of existence, not existence itself?

Would you say that the representation of non-existence exists?
Zero is in our minds so does not exist, but it represents something that does exist; the absence of things.

Infinity on the other hand exists in our minds but does not represent anything that exists.

Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by Logik » Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:56 pm

devans99 wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:55 pm
Zero is in our minds so does not exist,
OK. Lets go with that.
devans99 wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:55 pm
it represents something that does exist; the absence of things.
I agree. Zero represents non-existence.

So the representation of non-existence exists only in our minds.
But you just said that zero is in our minds and it does not exist.

So does the representation of non-existence exist or not?!?

devans99
Posts: 158
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:21 pm

Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by devans99 » Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:08 pm

Logik wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:56 pm
devans99 wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:55 pm
Zero is in our minds so does not exist,
OK. Lets go with that.
devans99 wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:55 pm
it represents something that does exist; the absence of things.
Yes. Zero represents non-existence.

So the representation of non-existence exists in minds.
But you just said that zero is in our minds and does not exist.

So does the representation of non-existence exist or not?!?
The representation of non-existence exists in our minds. Non-existence occurs in reality.

But some things exist only in our minds and not in reality (talking trees, infinity).

Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by Logik » Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:11 pm

devans99 wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:08 pm
The representation of non-existence exists in our minds. Non-existence occurs in reality.
You have just committed The Eternal Philosophical error in reasoning!

You have drawn a linguistic distinction without a practical difference between the words "occurs" and "exists" so as to avoid contradicting yourself.

The synonym is the favourite tool of the serial equivocator ;)

Allow me to correct you.
devans99 wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:08 pm
Non-existence o̶c̶c̶u̶r̶s̶ exists in reality.

devans99
Posts: 158
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:21 pm

Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by devans99 » Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:20 pm

Logik wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:11 pm
devans99 wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:08 pm
The representation of non-existence exists in our minds. Non-existence occurs in reality.
You have just committed The Eternal Philosophical error in reasoning!

You have drawn a linguistic distinction without a practical difference between the words "occurs" and "exists" so as to avoid contradicting yourself.
But non-existence can be said to occur, therefore exist. So I stand by non-existence exists in reality.

Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by Logik » Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:22 pm

devans99 wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:20 pm
I stand by non-existence exists in reality.
And what is your opinion regarding the law of non-contradiction?

You could've opted for "Representations of non-existence exist in reality." but you chose the way of The Dumb.

You fail to distinguish between the map and the territory...

devans99
Posts: 158
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:21 pm

Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by devans99 » Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:25 pm

Logik wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:22 pm
devans99 wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:20 pm
I stand by non-existence exists in reality.
And what is your opinion regarding the law of non-contradiction?

You could've opted for "Representations of non-existence exist in reality." but you chose the way of The Dumb.

You fail to distinguish between the map and the territory...
It is not contradictory. Put another way: The presence or not of something in reality is indisputable. Therefore the not presence of everything is possible.

Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by Logik » Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:27 pm

devans99 wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:25 pm
It is not contradictory. Put another way: The presence or not of something in reality is indisputable. Therefore the not presence of everything is possible.
non-existence exists is contradictory.

Refer to Principia Mathematica, Cambridge, pages 116–117

devans99
Posts: 158
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:21 pm

Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by devans99 » Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:43 pm

Logik wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:27 pm
devans99 wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:25 pm
It is not contradictory. Put another way: The presence or not of something in reality is indisputable. Therefore the not presence of everything is possible.
non-existence exists is contradictory.

Refer to Principia Mathematica, Cambridge, pages 116–117
I remain in disagreement. Absence of everything is a logically consistent idea. 'Empty space' as we call it is actually something and it originated in the Big Bang. How else do you explain dark energy?

Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by Logik » Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:45 pm

devans99 wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:43 pm
I remain in disagreement.
Naturally. You are free to remain wrong.
devans99 wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:43 pm
Absence of everything is a logically consistent idea.
No, it isn't.

Logic was invented by humans. The assertion of logical predicates requires humans. Humans are made of particles.

Absence of particles means absence of humans.
Absence of humans means absence of logic.

devans99
Posts: 158
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:21 pm

Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by devans99 » Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:54 pm

Logik wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:45 pm
devans99 wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:43 pm
I remain in disagreement.
Naturally. You are free to remain wrong.
devans99 wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:43 pm
Absence of everything is a logically consistent idea.
No, it isn't.

Logic was invented by humans. The assertion of logical predicates requires humans. Humans are made of particles.

Absence of particles means absence of humans.
Absence of humans means absence of logic.
I am not saying absence of everything has every existed in totality; there has always been something in our universe (but maybe there are null universes out there somewhere). I just saying absence of everything could co-exist with something; IE our expanding universe.

Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by Logik » Tue Jan 01, 2019 6:00 pm

devans99 wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:54 pm
I am not saying absence of everything has every existed in totality; there has always been something in our universe (but maybe there are null universes out there somewhere). I just saying absence of everything could co-exist with something; IE our expanding universe.
If you don't buy the argument that logic and all language is a representation of existence, not existence itself - it's rather moot.

Logic is simply a human effort to describe how reality behaves.
Logic is built upon one simple pre-supposition: Reality behaves and adheres to some set of basic and universal rules.

If this pre-supposition is false and reality is intrinsically chaotic then logic is useless.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest