There cannot be any emergence

How does science work? And what's all this about quantum mechanics?

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Logik
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Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by Logik » Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:18 pm

-1- wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 6:44 pm
Logik wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:10 pm

Knowing the names or definitions of things doesn't constitute neither knowledge nor understanding.

I also happen to know what knowledge is. 1st hand. It's just hard to put into words...

And unless you had knowledge, I doubt the dictionary will tell you what "appeal to authority" actually means ;)
Logik, did Nick_A steal your password? this sounds just like his texts do. :-)
It is one of those Wittgensteinisms.

Give me an experiment, not a definition.

fooloso4
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Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by fooloso4 » Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:35 pm

Logik wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:17 pm
fooloso4 wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 6:23 pm
Logik wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:10 pm

Naturally.

Knowing the names or definitions of things doesn't constitute neither knowledge nor understanding.

I also happen to know what knowledge is. 1st hand. It's just hard to put into words...

And unless you had knowledge, I doubt the dictionary will tell you what "appeal to authority" actually means ;)
Well, since you make appeal to knowledge of knowledge that cannot be put into words it seems there is no more to be said. You are moving further and further away from the topic of emergence. I will reserve further comment for those who are not thwarted by their 1st hand knowledge of knowledge from discussing properties and emergence.
Sure.

Still waiting for an example of a what you think is a non-emergent property.

I didn’t know you were waiting. One might start with the properties the elements out of which salt emerges, sodium and chlorine, since they are elemental their properties are non-emergent. But you might erroneously dismiss this as an appeal to authority: http://www.elementalmatter.info/sodium-properties.htm http://www.elementalmatter.info/element-chlorine.htm

Logik
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Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by Logik » Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:37 pm

fooloso4 wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:35 pm
Logik wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:17 pm
fooloso4 wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 6:23 pm


Well, since you make appeal to knowledge of knowledge that cannot be put into words it seems there is no more to be said. You are moving further and further away from the topic of emergence. I will reserve further comment for those who are not thwarted by their 1st hand knowledge of knowledge from discussing properties and emergence.
Sure.

Still waiting for an example of a what you think is a non-emergent property.

I didn’t know you were waiting. One might start with the properties the elements out of which salt emerges, sodium and chlorine, since they are elemental their properties are non-emergent. But you might erroneously dismiss this as an appeal to authority: http://www.elementalmatter.info/sodium-properties.htm http://www.elementalmatter.info/element-chlorine.htm
Where have you been the last 100 years?

Atoms are no longer considered “elemental”. Atoms are emergent phenomena. You can pretend they are elemental if you want max Planck to spin in his grave.

Physics is at the quantum paradigm now.

fooloso4
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Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by fooloso4 » Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:42 pm

Logik wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:37 pm
fooloso4 wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:35 pm
Logik wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:17 pm

Sure.

Still waiting for an example of a what you think is a non-emergent property.

I didn’t know you were waiting. One might start with the properties the elements out of which salt emerges, sodium and chlorine, since they are elemental their properties are non-emergent. But you might erroneously dismiss this as an appeal to authority: http://www.elementalmatter.info/sodium-properties.htm http://www.elementalmatter.info/element-chlorine.htm
Where have you been the last 100 years?

Atoms are no longer considered “elemental”. Atoms are emergent phenomena. You can pretend they are elemental if you want max Planck to spin in his grave.

Physics is at the quantum paradigm now.

The Periodic Table of Elements is not obsolete. Atoms are still considered elemental but they are divisible into more fundamental particles. We really do not know what is going on at the quantum level. The debate is ongoing. Some claim that at the quantum level things are deterministic but others that they are probabilistic. While it is true that atoms have properties that sub-atomic particles do not, I know of no theory of emergence that bridges the gap between the sub-atomic and atomic levels, that is, no way of explaining if or how the atomic level emerges from the subatomic.
Last edited by fooloso4 on Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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bahman
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Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by bahman » Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:00 pm

Logik wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:32 pm
bahman wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:21 pm
Logik wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 6:04 pm

The entire notion of "inherent property" bothers me. The "constituents" of molecules are atoms.
The "inherent properties" of atoms are also emergent given their quantum constituents.

Can anyone give me an example of an "inherent property" of a Sodium atom?
It has a charge, mass and spin distribution.
You mean it interacts with the tools devised to measure/quantify those phenomena? ;)
Yes, we know how salt is microscopically structured using X-ray scattering.

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bahman
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Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by bahman » Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:08 pm

fooloso4 wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:42 pm
Logik wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:37 pm
fooloso4 wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:35 pm



I didn’t know you were waiting. One might start with the properties the elements out of which salt emerges, sodium and chlorine, since they are elemental their properties are non-emergent. But you might erroneously dismiss this as an appeal to authority: http://www.elementalmatter.info/sodium-properties.htm http://www.elementalmatter.info/element-chlorine.htm
Where have you been the last 100 years?

Atoms are no longer considered “elemental”. Atoms are emergent phenomena. You can pretend they are elemental if you want max Planck to spin in his grave.

Physics is at the quantum paradigm now.

The Periodic Table of Elements is not obsolete. Atoms are still considered elemental but they are divisible into more fundamental particles. We really do not know what is going on at the quantum level. The debate is ongoing. Some claim that at the quantum level things are deterministic but others that they are probabilistic. While it is true that atoms have properties that sub-atomic particles do not, I know of no theory of emergence that bridges the gap between the sub-atomic and atomic levels.
Today people use density functional theory to show that the properties of atoms can be obtained from sub-atomic level. We have exact solution for hydrogen atom.

fooloso4
Posts: 281
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Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by fooloso4 » Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:23 pm

bahman wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:08 pm
fooloso4 wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:42 pm
Logik wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:37 pm

Where have you been the last 100 years?

Atoms are no longer considered “elemental”. Atoms are emergent phenomena. You can pretend they are elemental if you want max Planck to spin in his grave.

Physics is at the quantum paradigm now.

The Periodic Table of Elements is not obsolete. Atoms are still considered elemental but they are divisible into more fundamental particles. We really do not know what is going on at the quantum level. The debate is ongoing. Some claim that at the quantum level things are deterministic but others that they are probabilistic. While it is true that atoms have properties that sub-atomic particles do not, I know of no theory of emergence that bridges the gap between the sub-atomic and atomic levels.
Today people use density functional theory to show that the properties of atoms can be obtained from sub-atomic level. We have exact solution for hydrogen atom.

What does this theory say about emergence?

Logik
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Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by Logik » Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:25 pm

bahman wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:00 pm
Logik wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:32 pm
bahman wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:21 pm

It has a charge, mass and spin distribution.
You mean it interacts with the tools devised to measure/quantify those phenomena? ;)
Yes, we know how salt is microscopically structured using X-ray
If you are referring to XDR the pattern doesn’t represent the internal structure.

Because the scatter pattern is deterministic we can use it as an identification mechanism, but that is not the point in context of emergence.

If you can predict the X-ray scatter of salt from the X-ray scatter of sodium and chlorine separately, then you will convince me.

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bahman
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Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by bahman » Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:28 pm

fooloso4 wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:23 pm
bahman wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:08 pm
fooloso4 wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:42 pm
The Periodic Table of Elements is not obsolete. Atoms are still considered elemental but they are divisible into more fundamental particles. We really do not know what is going on at the quantum level. The debate is ongoing. Some claim that at the quantum level things are deterministic but others that they are probabilistic. While it is true that atoms have properties that sub-atomic particles do not, I know of no theory of emergence that bridges the gap between the sub-atomic and atomic levels.
Today people use density functional theory to show that the properties of atoms can be obtained from sub-atomic level. We have exact solution for hydrogen atom.
What does this theory say about emergence?
Condense matter physics is the field of study which claims this: The property of the whole can be known in terms of properties of parts. In another world, there is no emergence.

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bahman
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Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by bahman » Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:38 pm

Logik wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:25 pm
bahman wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:00 pm
Logik wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:32 pm


You mean it interacts with the tools devised to measure/quantify those phenomena? ;)
Yes, we know how salt is microscopically structured using X-ray
If you are referring to XDR the pattern doesn’t represent the internal structure.

Because the scatter pattern is deterministic we can use it as an identification mechanism, but that is not the point in context of emergence.

If you can predict the X-ray scatter of salt from the X-ray scatter of sodium and chlorine separately, then you will convince me.
You cannot. Because, the charge distribution of NaCl is different from the charge distribution of Na and Cl separately. We can however calculate several physical properties of NaCl using certain methods. The input for these methods are only number and properties of electrons and nucleons.

Logik
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Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by Logik » Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:28 pm

bahman wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:28 pm
fooloso4 wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:23 pm
bahman wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:08 pm

Today people use density functional theory to show that the properties of atoms can be obtained from sub-atomic level. We have exact solution for hydrogen atom.
What does this theory say about emergence?
Condense matter physics is the field of study which claims this: The property of the whole can be known in terms of properties of parts. In another world, there is no emergence.
Obviously emergence is an epistemic phenomenon.

Every whole is deterministic with perfect knowledge. It can be known vs it is known is the fundamental distinction/problem.

Perfect/complete knowledge is the elusive panacea.

Even then, phenomena will appear emergent if and until the system is completely described in practice, not just in theory.

Veritas Aequitas
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Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:27 am

bahman wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:29 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:02 am
bahman wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:16 pm

So my argument follows.

I agree. But what does really happen in the brain that certain neural activity turn into taste of salt and another one turn into taste of sweet. At the end they are just motion of electrons.
The point is you cannot deny the taste of salt and sweet are both emergent that imperatively necessitate the human self.
True.
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:58 am
True, at the end of day the are just motion of electrons.
But then 'electrons' are also emergent that imperatively necessitate the human self.
There are no electrons per se if there are no human selves. That condition will include whatever fundamental particles Physics [human interactive] will present.

In that sense, the whole of conscious reality is an emergent co-activated by the human self.
Therefore there is emergence.
In other words, as long as there are humans there are emergents.
But, the reality is that the behavior of salt can be explained in term of the behavior of Sodium and Chlorine. Therefore there is no emergence. Magic happens only when a human taste salt.
That is my main point.
In all cases of reality, emergence happens only when it is intervened by humans.

Sodium and Chlorine do not produce salt and taste of salt until the active normal human is introduced into the equation.

Btw, Sodium and Chlorine also do not exist until the active normal human is introduced into the scientific equation.

Thus whatever X of reality do not exists until the active normal human is introduced into the reality equation.
  • As long as there are human beings, there is emergence in reality.
    Human beings exist,
    Therefore there is emergence in reality.

Logik
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Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by Logik » Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:47 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:27 am
Human beings exist,
Therefore there is emergence in reality.
We, humans, are emergent phenomena...

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bahman
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Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by bahman » Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:35 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:27 am
As long as there are human beings, there is emergence in reality.
That is the power of mind in my opinion. We have ability to create certain things, thoughts for example.

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bahman
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Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by bahman » Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:36 pm

Logik wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:47 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:27 am
Human beings exist,
Therefore there is emergence in reality.
We, humans, are emergent phenomena...
Mind is the phenomena which is not emergent. Each human has a mind.

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