There cannot be any emergence

How does science work? And what's all this about quantum mechanics?

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Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by -1- » Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:37 pm

bahman wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 6:11 pm

So you mean that the taste of salt is an intrinsic property of the molecule? We know that intrinsic properties of the molecule is charge, mass and spin. There is nothing more.

Erm... are the intrinsic properties that you listed: charge, mass and spin, properties of molecules, or properties of electrons? I should think the latter. Molecules have combinations, different elements, different charges (as ions), etc.

Oh, yes, and they have taste.

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Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by -1- » Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:42 pm

bahman wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 6:08 pm
I think it is matter of how the human self is connected to reality. Regardless, the taste of salt is not an intrinsic property of the molecule. We know that the molecule has two nucleus and some electrons. The properties of these particles are simply charge, mass and spin. To me the properties of the molecule is simply charge, mass and spin too. Non of these properties is similar to salt's taste. So the question is where does the taste of salt come from?
True.

There is more to a unit than the sum of its parts.

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Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by -1- » Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:47 pm

Bahman, if your argument was right, then an amount of Sodium and an amount of Chlorine that are equal in atoms to each other, and taken separately, would taste like salt. But they don't. Sodium and Chloride taken in equal amounts but separately would taste very differently form salt (if the taster would survive to be able to tell).

There are other inherent properties to molecules than the inherent properties of their constituents alone.

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Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:58 am

bahman wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 6:08 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:13 am
bahman wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:00 pm

What you are missing is that the whole changes in the examples you provided.
What is that "whole" that is changing.
In your first example the whole is me and table.
In your second example the whole is fly and table.
Etc.
I was referring to the "whole" table specifically.
The "whole" of "table and me" would be a different sort "wholeness."

Note what is a simple basic whole table starts with;
  • -1 piece of wood say 2ft x 2ft x 2inches.
    - 4 pieces of 2" by 4" of 2.5 ft.
    - 10 pieces of nail
It is only a table when a man use a hammer and nail the pieces together to make a whole table, e.g. as below;

Image

The emergence of the table [concept and physical] is dependent on the human's mind and effort to produce the table.
The subsequent perception and realization of that physical table is also an emergent.

Note, to a fly or virus, there is no 'table' at all because they do have have the mind to form the concept of a table.

Thus my point, whatever is reality to human beings is an emergent that is conditioned upon the human self.

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:13 am
The molecule size virus cannot view the 'whole' table.
Therefore there is no 'whole table' that is independent by itself except as conditioned by the human self.
If 'emergence' is confined to a "whole" from the human perspective it has to be conditioned by the human self.

Thus my point;
..whatever is reality to human beings is an emergence that is conditioned upon the human self.
I think it is matter of how the human self is connected to reality. Regardless, the taste of salt is not an intrinsic property of the molecule. We know that the molecule has two nucleus and some electrons. The properties of these particles are simply charge, mass and spin. To me the properties of the molecule is simply charge, mass and spin too. Non of these properties is similar to salt's taste. So the question is where does the taste of salt come from?
Yes, taste of salt is not intrinsic of the molecules.

Note it is;
Salt molecules + human self [tongue, salt receptors, mind] = taste of salt.

The taste of salt is thus an emergent conditioned upon the human self, thus my point again,

..whatever is reality to human beings is an emergent that is conditioned upon the human self.

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Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by Logik » Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:53 am

bahman wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 6:11 pm
Logik wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:29 am
bahman wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:02 pm
You need a human and salt in the case you want to see what is the taste of salt. So the whole is human and salt.
Having another human is of absolutely no use to me. Being told that it "tastes like salt" doesn't convey the actual taste if I have never tasted salt before.

So I don't need a human. All I need is to lick the salt.
So you mean that the taste of salt is an intrinsic property of the molecule? We know that intrinsic properties of the molecule is charge, mass and spin. There is nothing more.
No, I mean you are talking about “the human” from a 3rd person perspective.

Which is typically what scientists do.

If another human was to lick the salt then this is a pointless experiment. You will learn nothing about the taste of salt.

The whole notion of "intrinsic" and "non-intrinsic" properties is kinda moot.

A human had to measure those "intrinsic" properties and then they communicated those properties to you.
How exactly would I go communicating the taste of salt to you if you have never tasted salt before?

The first principle of science is ceteris paribus. It applies to the experiences and prior knowledge of the observer too!

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Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by bahman » Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:12 pm

-1- wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:47 pm
Bahman, if your argument was right, then an amount of Sodium and an amount of Chlorine that are equal in atoms to each other, and taken separately, would taste like salt. But they don't. Sodium and Chloride taken in equal amounts but separately would taste very differently form salt (if the taster would survive to be able to tell).

There are other inherent properties to molecules than the inherent properties of their constituents alone.
Where are the other inherent properties? To the best of our knowledge electron for example doesn't have any other inherent property than it was mentioned. Do you mean that there are hidden?

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Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by bahman » Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:16 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:58 am
Yes, taste of salt is not intrinsic of the molecules.
So my argument follows.
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:58 am
Note it is;
Salt molecules + human self [tongue, salt receptors, mind] = taste of salt.
I agree. But what does really happen in the brain that certain neural activity turn into taste of salt and another one turn into taste of sweet. At the end they are just motion of electrons.

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Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by bahman » Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:21 pm

Logik wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:53 am
bahman wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 6:11 pm
Logik wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:29 am

Having another human is of absolutely no use to me. Being told that it "tastes like salt" doesn't convey the actual taste if I have never tasted salt before.

So I don't need a human. All I need is to lick the salt.
So you mean that the taste of salt is an intrinsic property of the molecule? We know that intrinsic properties of the molecule is charge, mass and spin. There is nothing more.
No, I mean you are talking about “the human” from a 3rd person perspective.

Which is typically what scientists do.

If another human was to lick the salt then this is a pointless experiment. You will learn nothing about the taste of salt.

The whole notion of "intrinsic" and "non-intrinsic" properties is kinda moot.

A human had to measure those "intrinsic" properties and then they communicated those properties to you.
How exactly would I go communicating the taste of salt to you if you have never tasted salt before?

The first principle of science is ceteris paribus. It applies to the experiences and prior knowledge of the observer too!
I said you need a human not another human.

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Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by Logik » Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:22 pm

bahman wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:21 pm
I said you need a human not another human.
Am I to understand that the "I" who uttered the above sentence does not consider themselves human?

You don't need a human. You have a human. You have you. It's kind of implicit.
Last edited by Logik on Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by -1- » Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:02 pm

bahman wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:12 pm
-1- wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:47 pm
Bahman, if your argument was right, then an amount of Sodium and an amount of Chlorine that are equal in atoms to each other, and taken separately, would taste like salt. But they don't. Sodium and Chloride taken in equal amounts but separately would taste very differently form salt (if the taster would survive to be able to tell).

There are other inherent properties to molecules than the inherent properties of their constituents alone.
Where are the other inherent properties? To the best of our knowledge electron for example doesn't have any other inherent property than it was mentioned. Do you mean that there are hidden?
No, they are not hidden. But the molecules have their inherent properties different from the inherent properties of their constituents.

That's the entire point. "The whole of a woman is bigger than the sum of her parts." Inherent properties do not get inherited from constituent parts to summed wholes in a manner of one-to-one mapping. New properties are bourne out of the structure, combination and reaction to these.

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Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by Logik » Sun Dec 30, 2018 6:04 pm

-1- wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:02 pm
There are other inherent properties to molecules than the inherent properties of their constituents alone.
The entire notion of "inherent property" bothers me. The "constituents" of molecules are atoms.
The "inherent properties" of atoms are also emergent given their quantum constituents.

Can anyone give me an example of an "inherent property" of a Sodium atom?

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Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by -1- » Sun Dec 30, 2018 7:50 pm

Logik wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 6:04 pm
-1- wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:02 pm
There are other inherent properties to molecules than the inherent properties of their constituents alone.
The entire notion of "inherent property" bothers me. The "constituents" of molecules are atoms.
The "inherent properties" of atoms are also emergent given their quantum constituents.

Can anyone give me an example of an "inherent property" of a Sodium atom?
I was just going along with the convention established by the two parties that were debating this issue.

"Inherent property" is, as I see it, a useless expression, but hey, I was not going to argue about THAT too. There is enough on my plate, trying to establish that a complex unit behaves differently from how its constituents individually each behave. Apparently this is really hard a concept to internalize.

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Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by fooloso4 » Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:49 pm

Salt was used as an example of emergence but what is emergent is that sodium chloride has properties that neither sodium - a highly reactive alkali metal, and chlorine, a poisonous gas, has.

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Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by Logik » Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:40 am

fooloso4 wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:49 pm
Salt was used as an example of emergence but what is emergent is that sodium chloride has properties that neither sodium - a highly reactive alkali metal, and chlorine, a poisonous gas, has.
Neither reactivity is a property of Na, nor is "poisonous" a property of Cl.

In both cases you are describing interactions.

The "reactivity" of Na depends on what you introduce it to.
The "toxicity" of Cl depends on the organism it interacts with.

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Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by Impenitent » Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:06 am

the reactivity of Na (nu) Cl (ckle) is lessened by boxing gloves...

-Imp

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