AlexW wrote: ↑Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:06 am
Age wrote: ↑Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:23 am
But misunderstanding is avoidable WITH CLARIFICATION.
To a degree - yes - of course it also depends on the topic of discussion.
When talking about interpretations of sense impressions, e.g. when looking at the same object, then clarification is a lot easier than when discussing things that only exists in the mind (please, lets just use this language for now
)
Okay, but 'thought' works much BETTER.
AlexW wrote: ↑Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:06 amWhen discussing a unicorn, or even worse, god/absolute, then even clarifications are mostly not enough to avoid a certain degree of misunderstanding - they are helpful, sure, but, one cant expect that the same understanding of these topics will be equally available to both minds.
Here is a great example of WHERE understanding/misunderstanding comes from.
It would appear that you would like me to accept what you are saying here, yet the VERY WORDS that this topic is about 'Mind/minds' you just want me/us to accept that we have YOUR understanding of what this/these word/words mean. You even asked me, very nicely, to please, let us just use this language for now
Now i could have quite easily misinterpreted and thus then misunderstood what you meant by the word 'language' in that. I am wondering did they want me to just use the word 'mind' or use the language of some thing that was written. Because the word 'language' is sometimes/usually in reference to at least a few words or more, but the word 'word' is sometimes/usually in reference to just one word, like the word 'mind'.
That is just one example of how quickly misinterpretation and misunderstanding can happen. Yet another example of WHERE misunderstanding comes from is the very use of the word 'mind', it is just like the word 'god'. How can people be asked to just use or accept these words and TRY TO understand what I am saying as though it is even possible.
The word 'unicorn' is EXTREMELY easy to understand. One just has to draw a picture, through pen and paper, or through descriptive words, for others to grasp some sort of understanding of
what "it" IS, that one is referring to. The word 'God' and 'Mind', however, could well be probably the two hardest words to understand, for one's self and for others. For starters HOW does one even begin to describe what these THINGS are. No amount of pen and paper nor descriptive words has worked so far.
The 'Mind' is said to be within the human body, the 'Mind' can NOT be seen when the human body is cut open. Even when cut up into the smallest of parts the 'Mind' can NOT be seen, not at least with the physical human eyes, anyway. Although the exact same phenomena happens with 'thoughts' (and 'emotions') at least with the word 'thoughts' and 'emotions' human being can grasp a sense of what these things ARE. But with the word 'Mind' this ability to grasp a sense of
what 'It' IS or understand
what 'It' IS is much harder.
Now, back to your point. Because I KNOW a specific language with specific definitions for the words and terms used that can and WILL cause non-confusion and thus NO misunderstanding at all, then I do NOT agree with you about;
one cant expect that the same understanding of these topics will be equally available to both minds.
The very heart/center point of the matter here is the word 'Mind' and Its usage. (This is for a further discussion, much later on) But for the moment anyway, I KNOW that the EXACT SAME understanding of these topics will be EQUALLY available to ALL, human beings.
The EQUAL UNDERSTANDING comes from specific definitions for individual words, which by the way are not that to far removed from dictionary definitions in use now. From these specific definitions meaning is derived, from which when ALL seen together as one, illustrates a dare I say it "perfect" picture, of which ALL will be in agreement with and thus will also accept.
Although this may sound somewhat complex and hard to do or achieve, but really it is very, very SIMPLE and EASY.
By the way, if clarification from "another" can NOT be achieved, then that is NOT helpful at all, and thus all it really shows is the author/speaker does NOT really KNOW what they are TRYING TO talk about.
Also, I understand, accept, and agree, with you that there are just some things that a full understanding from "another's" perspective can NOT be obtained. For example, the color 'blue'. From two different human beings, WHAT the color 'blue' actually IS, could NEVER be fully understand and KNOWN. For all these two people KNOW the color of 'blue' could be the other person's color of 'red', but in knowing that the beauty of what is now KNOWN is that that does NOT matter. What really matters IS acceptance and agreement. If these two people accept that THIS 'color' (whatever it is) IS the EXACT same, and they agree on THIS, then that is all that really matters.
So, it does NOT matter how 'things' are defined nor what those 'things' really are, but
what 'It' IS that is in agreement is what matters. Now, if
what 'it' IS, is in agreement, and ALL of that agreement is accepted AND fitting together, to form a big and full picture of ALL-THERE-IS, then nothing else really matters.
The only way, that I know of anyway, to reach this UNDERSTANDING and agreement of IT is to gain clarification from EACH other. Just like we will NEVER know what the "true" color of 'blue' IS we ONLY gain an
understanding of
what it IS (or more Truthfully
what it COULD BE) through clarification with and from each other [ALL-OF-US]. Only through peaceful clarifying questions am I able to ascertain what THIS color IS, from another's perspective. When agreement is reached, then AN
understanding is also made.
So, a FULL
understanding can be obtained THROUGH CLARIFICATION.
AlexW wrote: ↑Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:06 amAge wrote: ↑Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:23 am
And, if you could really be bothered you will also notice just how often my questions are NOT answered.
Yes, maybe I can't be bothered
Maybe no one can... one can only eat as much vanilla ice-cream before you have to stop, otherwise you will be feeling unwell - its the same with too many questions...
NOT REALLY. There is NO physical body that is affected by to many questions.
Personally I can NOT be asked enough questions, nor even be challenged enough. I actually THRIVE, and grow, on it.
The more I LEARN, and grow wiser, then the better and healthier i feel.
AlexW wrote: ↑Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:06 amAge wrote: ↑Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:23 am
This is mostly because human beings have a tendency to think that when questions are being asked that they are NOT really OPEN questions but an expression of TRYING TO SHOW another point of view or even show an opposite point of view, or, SHOW another side or another perspective of things
Yes, fully agree.
But that is NOT what I am intentionally doing, when I ask questions.
I truly just ask questions only seeking truly open and honest answers only.
AlexW wrote: ↑Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:06 amAge wrote: ↑Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:23 am
I, on the other hand, am NOT doing this, and, ALL that I am doing is just asking Truly OPEN questions for clarification.
While this might be so it doesn't help you to communicate well with others, right?
To a point you are absolutely correct.
Outside of this forum, however, i do NOT communicate with others this way.
AlexW wrote: ↑Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:06 amSometimes you will have to step onto the same platform of thought for others to understand you, and to actually enjoy talking to you.
Totally agree. But that is HOW i have communicate, and usually communicate outside of this forum. Getting on their level of thought and thinking and just enjoying that type of talking. But if, as I see is correct, this platform is only on one side waiting for a train that is heading in one direction on a one way track, downhill to 'our', human beings', demise.
Turning this around and heading us ALL back, to WHERE we really belong, mostly for children's sake is all that I really want to do now. I KNOW that what will produced and the enjoyment from that completely overrides any short-term enjoyment now for me.
AlexW wrote: ↑Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:06 am As long as you remain in your own world of perfect openness, including all its sometimes strange effects on human communication patterns, it will be difficult for you to reach others with what you have to say.
I do NOT disagree with you at all here.
I do enjoy the talking with others, as some others do enjoy talking with me outside of this forum, but that also does NOT work in "reaching" others. So, i feel a whole life wasting away communicating that way.
There may be as many ways to "reach" others as there are 'others', but for single ole 'me' there is only one way that i learned and thus only one way that i KNOW of that works. I wish I KNEW of other ways but the only way I KNOW of is through absolute Honesty and Openness, and through clarification
understanding is reached.
I will just have to continue TRYING different ways to communicate until I discover another way. The reason I chose a philosophy forum for this learning endeavor is because if any person can find fault in communication/language/word usage, then it surely would be from people who like arguing/logical reasoning. For example, you are now SHOWING me my errors and faults perfectly, from my perspective.
As I have eluded to before, this forum is NOT the place to reach others with what I WANT to say, but just a place WHERE to learn how to better communicate what it is that I WANT to say.
AlexW wrote: ↑Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:06 amAge wrote: ↑Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:23 am
Please do NOT tell me what i do, thank you.
Why not? If I feel that you are doing a certain thing then I am allowed to point it out, no?
Of course you are allowed to point things out. I even want you to. But please just express it as, to you, this is how I come across or how I appear to be doing things.
Even better is asking the clarifying question; Are you making an assumption here, instead of just saying things like;
you assume.
And, if you can SEE and obvious assumption that I am making/have made, then please point that out to me. I really do love to be SHOWN where I have done some thing, which I say is WRONG or NOT RIGHT.
I just do NOT like being told that I do some things, without the actual evidence for this.
AlexW wrote: ↑Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:06 amOf course it is only my interpretation/assumption but ignoring what another has to say about the impact your "doing" has is not helpful.
I certainly would NOT, intentionally, ignore what another says in regards to my lack of communication skills.
AlexW wrote: ↑Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:06 am Its not something you should ignore by basically saying "no one is allowed to judge me" (even no one should do it, it happens - so deal with it)
See that was NOT my intention and NOTHING like I was wanting to sound like, nor meant at all. I was certainly NOT saying any thing like this at all.
I just, literally, meant please do NOT tell me what I do, WITHOUT FIRST THE ACTUAL EVIDENCE.
SEE, how much I have to learn in order to communicate better. The main and most important bit I left out completely.
AlexW wrote: ↑Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:06 amAge wrote: ↑Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:23 am
The Truth is NOT what, appears to be or, is different, but what IS, the same/agreement.
I "assume" I understand, but just to be perfectly clear, please elaborate or express in a different way - thanks.
This is again the PERFECT kind of discussion/communication that I have been looking for. A huge reason for misunderstanding between human beings, is 'we' ASSUME we understand what the other is saying or we ASSUME the other will understand what we are saying. One of the biggest causes of human beings disagreeing, disputing, arguing, fighting, and warring, i think that will be found, is just the misunderstanding of the definition of the words being used in the discussion. If clarification, agreement, and acceptance are sort first, then the above misunderstanding, and its causes, can and will be eradicated.
I have actually written something above, before I read this, in regards to agreement and Truth. But at its most fundamental level; the Truth is
what IS in agreement with and by ALL. For the very fact that if no one/thing is disagreeing with some 'thing', then that 'thing', which is in agreement, would have to be the Truth. For who/what would be disputing It? In saying that there is another step higher of an absolute Truth, which we can look at now or leave that for later if you like.
What is important is if you agree with that definition/description for the word 'Truth' or not?
If that is NOT elaborated and/or NOT explained in a sufficient way, then please let me know and I will TRY again.
AlexW wrote: ↑Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:06 amAge wrote: ↑Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:23 am
There is absolutely NO one that is more nor less SPECIAL than another. Just like there is NO one that is more nor less good nor bad than another IS.
This is of course true in pure being-ness, but not in "the world of things".
Well which ONE is the true and correct one, and which one is the perceived and illusioned one?
If the former one is the true and correct one, then what I said IS thee Truth. End of story. There is NO use in even looking at or even considering the made up and illusioned world.
But, if "the world of things" is the true and correct one, then do NOT take a word of what I said as true. Then let every one who has their own little perspective of truth live in and enjoy their own little worlds. This is of NO concern to Me.
AlexW wrote: ↑Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:06 am
Here you will communicate with people that understand certain things better than others and you will have to adopt the style of concepts you use, the pictures you draw etc to actually be understood...[/quote]
Of course ALL people are at varying levels of understanding. If the Truth be KNOWN human babies have a far greater grasp of the True and Proper
UNDERSTANDING than adult human beings, but that is a side issue. From the human being perceived "world of things" level generally the older have a greater understanding than the younger, and, there is a complete mixture of "understanding" mixed up throughout all of this.
But, what it is that I want to communicate WILL be understood from the youngest to the oldest equally and just as simply and easily for every one of them. Really there is NOT much at all that I want to say, that is NOT already KNOWN within EVERY one, already anyway. I just want to express HOW to find WHAT IS ALREADY KNOWN.
The style that I am learning is FOR EVERY one and NOT just some.
AlexW wrote: ↑Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:06 am but this kind of understanding, the one that comes from talking and thinking is not real understanding.
As far as I am aware through, thinking, talking, writing, and illustrating this is the ONLY way that human beings can communicate.
New born human babies, who do have Real Understanding are, unfortunately, unable to communicate how to find/rediscover this KNOWLEDGE. Therefore, only older human beings will have to do this. And, the only way they can communicate this is, unfortunately, through THINKING first.
AlexW wrote: ↑Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:06 amReal understanding comes from life itself. Its a bit like riding a bike - you cant think yourself into learning to ride a bike - yes one can understand all the details on how to hold balance etc, but this will only take you so far. It will actually be a hindrance if one continues to think about how to hold balance when sitting on a bike trying to actually ride it. The learning process will happen without thought intervening - its the same with real understanding, truth, being-ness - it doesn't come from understanding the topic and trying to apply it.
You are using some of the, dare I say it, "magic" words here.
Thought/Thinking, (as in ASSUMING and/or BELIEVING) is a HUGE hindrance in (RE)DISCOVERING, LEARNING, SEEING, and UNDERSTANDING what is ALREADY KNOWN.
AlexW wrote: ↑Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:06 amAge wrote: ↑Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:23 am
But when one has ALL understanding, then, obviously, thought does NOT still run like crazy. ALL understanding, obviously, includes ALL, which would obviously mean understanding ALL thought also, and how it works, too.
What exactly do you mean with "when one has ALL understanding"?
But are you even open to there being a 'one'?
If I recall correctly you have already expressed that there is NO 'one', am I right?
AlexW wrote: ↑Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:06 amWho has this understanding?
The one and only One, which is the collective of ALL and which is the Observer of ALL things.
AlexW wrote: ↑Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:06 amWhat is the understanding? (I have told you what I mean with real - not thought based - understanding in the previous paragraph - is your understanding different?)
NOT really.
Understanding comes from KNOWING, not from learning. Learning triggers thoughts, and thoughts triggers thinking, thinking can very easily distort reality, or what is KNOWN. Thinking and Knowing are NOT the same thing, obviously.
For example, a human baby is born with real Understanding. This baby KNOWS what is NEEDED in order to live. Unfortunately along the way of this babies development into adulthood it LEARNS that other things are NEEDED, instead of just what is REALLY NEEDED, this older human being THINKS it NEEDS more things, which then distorts from SEEING what the actual and Real Truth IS. What it really NEEDS is still KNOWN within, but just lost within all that thought and thinking. But, fortunately ALL human beings have ALL experienced the EXACT SAME things, which through these common Life experiences agreement can be REACHED, and the True REALITY of Life can also be found and come into existence.