Mind or minds

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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bahman
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Mind or minds

Post by bahman » Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:07 pm

So this problem, whether there is only a Mind or many minds, arise in another thread.

I argue that our experiences are personal. Separate personal experience requires separate mind. Therefore there are minds.

Let's hear his/her argument and see where the discussion goes.

Age
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Re: Mind or minds

Post by Age » Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:16 pm

bahman wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:07 pm
So this problem, whether there is only a Mind or many minds, arise in another thread.

I argue that our experiences are personal. Separate personal experience requires separate mind. Therefore there are minds.

Let's hear his/her argument and see where the discussion goes.
If, and when, words are defined correctly, then whether there is only one Mind or many minds will become obvious, and KNOWN.

What is your definition for 'Mind' and 'minds'? Or, is one definition just the plural definition of the other definition?

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bahman
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Re: Mind or minds

Post by bahman » Sat Dec 22, 2018 1:23 pm

Age wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:16 pm
bahman wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:07 pm
So this problem, whether there is only a Mind or many minds, arise in another thread.

I argue that our experiences are personal. Separate personal experience requires separate mind. Therefore there are minds.

Let's hear his/her argument and see where the discussion goes.
If, and when, words are defined correctly, then whether there is only one Mind or many minds will become obvious, and KNOWN.

What is your definition for 'Mind' and 'minds'? Or, is one definition just the plural definition of the other definition?
Mind in general, whether is a single Mind or many minds, is essence of any being or thing with ability to experience, decide and cause.

Age
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Re: Mind or minds

Post by Age » Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:02 am

bahman wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 1:23 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:16 pm
bahman wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:07 pm
So this problem, whether there is only a Mind or many minds, arise in another thread.

I argue that our experiences are personal. Separate personal experience requires separate mind. Therefore there are minds.

Let's hear his/her argument and see where the discussion goes.
If, and when, words are defined correctly, then whether there is only one Mind or many minds will become obvious, and KNOWN.

What is your definition for 'Mind' and 'minds'? Or, is one definition just the plural definition of the other definition?
Mind in general, whether is a single Mind or many minds, is essence of any being or thing with ability to experience, decide and cause.
Okay, that is fine, with me.

Is 'Mind' always OPEN, always KNOWING, and always ABLE to do ANY thing that It so wishes?

Or, can 'Mind' be some times closed, NOT knowing, and NOT able to ALL things that it so wishes?

If 'Mind' has the ability to experience, decide, and cause, then that would infer the former one is right, right?

Also, if that is what 'Mind' IS, then what IS 'being' or 'thing', and, are they different in any way from each other?

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bahman
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Re: Mind or minds

Post by bahman » Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:02 pm

Age wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:02 am
Okay, that is fine, with me.
Great.
Age wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:02 am
Is 'Mind' always OPEN, always KNOWING, and always ABLE to do ANY thing that It so wishes?
Mind can do any thing which is logically possible depending on Its knowledge and the stuff that binds It.
Age wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:02 am
Or, can 'Mind' be some times closed, NOT knowing, and NOT able to ALL things that it so wishes?
I think that knowledge is unbound and Mind or mind are bounded. Mind, what I call god. however knows more that mind, other sort of being like human. I can show that there is no absolute God since quality like power is not bounded. So there is always a higher god.
Age wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:02 am
If 'Mind' has the ability to experience, decide, and cause, then that would infer the former one is right, right?
Mind is free to decide between available options. Mind's experience and causation however limited to Its knowledge and stuff that binds It.
Age wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:02 am
Also, if that is what 'Mind' IS, then what IS 'being' or 'thing', and, are they different in any way from each other?
Mind can experience everything which exists if is not bounded by stuff. Mind plus stuff which binds Mind is a being or thing. I use being for entities like human and animal. I use thing generally for object.

Age
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Re: Mind or minds

Post by Age » Sun Dec 23, 2018 3:19 pm

bahman wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:02 pm
Age wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:02 am
Okay, that is fine, with me.
Great.
Age wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:02 am
Is 'Mind' always OPEN, always KNOWING, and always ABLE to do ANY thing that It so wishes?
Mind can do any thing which is logically possible depending on Its knowledge and the stuff that binds It.
We are talking about WHAT is Creating the Universe the way it is, right?

If Mind or minds have/has existed forever, is within EVERY physical thing, has the ability to experience, decide, and cause, and also with KNOWLEDGE that comes from being able to experience, decide, and cause with and from EVERY physical thing, then sure this Mind or minds would be actually Creating the Universe, the way it is?
Age wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:02 am
Or, can 'Mind' be some times closed, NOT knowing, and NOT able to ALL things that it so wishes?
I think that knowledge is unbound and Mind or mind are bounded.[/quote]

Bounded by what exactly?

The very reason I use the term 'Mind' is because It can NOT be bounded. I also use the term 'thoughts', for the apparently different 'minds' because they are obviously bounded.
bahman wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:02 pm
Mind, what I call god. however knows more that mind, other sort of being like human.
One reason human beings are still so confused on this issue is because they continually think, believe and/or say that human beings have their own minds. The actual Truth is there are 'thoughts,' within each and every human body, over a certain age. But, WHERE is the, so called, "human 'mind' "?

There is NO actual evidence for a "human" 'mind', BUT, there is a great deal of evidence of an unbounded, Truly OPEN, part or thing, within human beings that allows them to continually Create and Learn MORE and MORE.
bahman wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:02 pm
I can show that there is no absolute God since quality like power is not bounded. So there is always a higher god.
I would like to see that. Especially as what I SEE now is that if there is an absolute power, which I am always SEEING by the way, then that power could be in relation to an absolute God. Also, if that absolute power, was in relation to an absolute God, then there would NOT be any higher god than that God.
bahman wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:02 pm
Age wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:02 am
If 'Mind' has the ability to experience, decide, and cause, then that would infer the former one is right, right?
Mind is free to decide between available options.
Agreed.

Human beings have this freedom to decide. I call that free-will. However, and just as equally determinism plays a part in human beings. Human beings are TOTALLY FREE to decide between available options, these 'options' by the way are just thoughts, and it is these available options/thoughts that have been pre-determined from past experiences, (or pre-programmed), and thus also determine what can and actually WILL happen in the future.

Free-will and determinism EQUALLY cause what IS going to come and BE.
bahman wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:02 pm
Mind's experience and causation however limited to Its knowledge and stuff that binds It.
Because the one 'Mind' exists forever It has EXPERIENCED and has KNOWLEDGE of ALL-THERE-IS.
But, what you call 'minds' and which I call 'the being within the human body, or the person' then of course this so call 'mind' is bounded, tremendously.
bahman wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:02 pm
Age wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:02 am
Also, if that is what 'Mind' IS, then what IS 'being' or 'thing', and, are they different in any way from each other?
Mind can experience everything which exists if is not bounded by stuff.
Thee Mind/Being is NOT bounded, by any thing. Although,
The (human) mind/being IS bounded, by lots of stuff.
bahman wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:02 pm
Mind plus stuff which binds Mind is a being or thing. I use being for entities like human and animal. I use thing generally for object.
I am just wondering do you have a picture of how EVERY thing fits together perfectly?

If no, then what might help is;

There is a 'human being', which consists of a physical human body and a being within it. I call the being within a human body the 'person'. The 'person' just being the thoughts and emotions, which are by the way both invisible to the human eyes, like a soul or being IS.

There is, also, a 'God-being', which consists of absolutely EVERY physical object and a Being with them. I call the Being within EVERY physical object the 'God'. This 'God' just being thee Mind, which is by the way invisible to the human eyes, like a Spirit IS.

To me:
Thee Being is the invisible source of Energy, or as some might say the Life Force, behind EVERY physical thing, but this Being NEVER forces so It really is just Free Energy. This has NEVER been created as It just IS.
The being is the invisible thoughts and emotions that drive human beings to do what they do.

Human beings are absolutely FREE to choose whatever they want to do. The very reason WHY the God-Being allows this to happen will become much clearer and far more obvious, further "down the track".

And, what you have been calling "thing", and now generally for "object", is just what I call "physical matter".

Thee Being, or the being, is just the One, or the one, living within physical matter.

One KNOWS, and, the other one THINKS it KNOWS. I am sure you would KNOW which one is which here.

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bahman
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Re: Mind or minds

Post by bahman » Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:33 pm

Age wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 3:19 pm
bahman wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:02 pm
Age wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:02 am
Okay, that is fine, with me.
Great.
Age wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:02 am
Is 'Mind' always OPEN, always KNOWING, and always ABLE to do ANY thing that It so wishes?
Mind can do any thing which is logically possible depending on Its knowledge and the stuff that binds It.
We are talking about WHAT is Creating the Universe the way it is, right?
Yes.
Age wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 3:19 pm
If Mind or minds have/has existed forever, is within EVERY physical thing, has the ability to experience, decide, and cause, and also with KNOWLEDGE that comes from being able to experience, decide, and cause with and from EVERY physical thing, then sure this Mind or minds would be actually Creating the Universe, the way it is?
Yes.
Age wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:02 am
bahman wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:02 pm
Age wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:02 am
Or, can 'Mind' be some times closed, NOT knowing, and NOT able to ALL things that it so wishes?
I think that knowledge is unbound and Mind or mind are bounded.
Bounded by what exactly?
Bounded with what they know. That is the natural conclusion of boundlessness of knowledge. No matter how much a mind know there is always possible to know more.
Age wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:02 am
The very reason I use the term 'Mind' is because It can NOT be bounded. I also use the term 'thoughts', for the apparently different 'minds' because they are obviously bounded.
I know what you are talking about. Mind or God, if there is any, to me is merely the creator. God's knowledge to me is bounded even if it is infinite since there always exists a value larger than infinite.
Age wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:02 am
bahman wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:02 pm
Mind, what I call god. however knows more that mind, other sort of being like human.
One reason human beings are still so confused on this issue is because they continually think, believe and/or say that human beings have their own minds. The actual Truth is there are 'thoughts,' within each and every human body, over a certain age. But, WHERE is the, so called, "human 'mind' "?
Human's mind is where s/he is.
Age wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:02 am
There is NO actual evidence for a "human" 'mind', BUT, there is a great deal of evidence of an unbounded, Truly OPEN, part or thing, within human beings that allows them to continually Create and Learn MORE and MORE.
I think I already provide an argument in another thread for existence of mind and causation whenever there is a change. I repeat it here for sake of clarity for the readers: Consider a change in a system, X to Y. X and Y cannot coexist therefore X has to vanishes before Y takes place. Y however cannot comes out of nothingness (remember that there is nothing when X vanishes). Therefore there should exist a mind that experiences X and causes Y.
Age wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:02 am
bahman wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:02 pm
I can show that there is no absolute God since quality like power is not bounded. So there is always a higher god.
I would like to see that. Especially as what I SEE now is that if there is an absolute power, which I am always SEEING by the way, then that power could be in relation to an absolute God. Also, if that absolute power, was in relation to an absolute God, then there would NOT be any higher god than that God.
The argument is as following: Power has some value and therefore can be discussed mathematically. There exists not any bound for any quality, such as power. Absolute power requires a bound (it is simply maximum in a quality). Therefore absolute power does not exists.
Age wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:02 am
bahman wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:02 pm
Age wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:02 am
If 'Mind' has the ability to experience, decide, and cause, then that would infer the former one is right, right?
Mind is free to decide between available options.
Agreed.

Human beings have this freedom to decide. I call that free-will. However, and just as equally determinism plays a part in human beings. Human beings are TOTALLY FREE to decide between available options, these 'options' by the way are just thoughts, and it is these available options/thoughts that have been pre-determined from past experiences, (or pre-programmed), and thus also determine what can and actually WILL happen in the future.

Free-will and determinism EQUALLY cause what IS going to come and BE.
Yes.
Age wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:02 am
bahman wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:02 pm
Mind plus stuff which binds Mind is a being or thing. I use being for entities like human and animal. I use thing generally for object.
I am just wondering do you have a picture of how EVERY thing fits together perfectly?

If no, then what might help is;

There is a 'human being', which consists of a physical human body and a being within it. I call the being within a human body the 'person'. The 'person' just being the thoughts and emotions, which are by the way both invisible to the human eyes, like a soul or being IS.

There is, also, a 'God-being', which consists of absolutely EVERY physical object and a Being with them. I call the Being within EVERY physical object the 'God'. This 'God' just being thee Mind, which is by the way invisible to the human eyes, like a Spirit IS.

To me:
Thee Being is the invisible source of Energy, or as some might say the Life Force, behind EVERY physical thing, but this Being NEVER forces so It really is just Free Energy. This has NEVER been created as It just IS.
The being is the invisible thoughts and emotions that drive human beings to do what they do.

Human beings are absolutely FREE to choose whatever they want to do. The very reason WHY the God-Being allows this to happen will become much clearer and far more obvious, further "down the track".

And, what you have been calling "thing", and now generally for "object", is just what I call "physical matter".

Thee Being, or the being, is just the One, or the one, living within physical matter.

One KNOWS, and, the other one THINKS it KNOWS. I am sure you would KNOW which one is which here.
I see. I however think that we know without doubt that we are in charge of changes. Therefore there exists minds that experience the situation, decide and cause. My argument stand unless you object that the very fact that we are in charge of changes is an illusion.

AlexW
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Re: Mind or minds

Post by AlexW » Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:54 am

bahman wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:07 pm
is there only a Mind or many minds
Neither.
There is no such thing as a mind at all.

Mind is like Time. There is no such thing as time outside of memories of the past and projections into the future.
It is the same with Mind, there is no mind besides ideas of such a thing.
So far no one has ever found a "mind" (or "time") - all one will ever find is one thought happening now, and another thought happening now, and another...

surreptitious57
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Re: Mind or minds

Post by surreptitious57 » Mon Dec 24, 2018 2:52 am

I know of [ human ] minds but do not know of a [ non human ] Mind
I think the Universe is fundamentally a physical non biological system even though it may have life forms within it such as us for example
And because I think this is how I have described it I do not think that there is a Mind [ or God ] that exists who possesses total knowledge
I do however think absolutely everything is directly or indirectly connected to everything else [ there are no gaps in Existence / Reality ]

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Re: Mind or minds

Post by bahman » Mon Dec 24, 2018 12:59 pm

AlexW wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:54 am
bahman wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:07 pm
is there only a Mind or many minds
Neither.
There is no such thing as a mind at all.

Mind is like Time. There is no such thing as time outside of memories of the past and projections into the future.
It is the same with Mind, there is no mind besides ideas of such a thing.
So far no one has ever found a "mind" (or "time") - all one will ever find is one thought happening now, and another thought happening now, and another...
I have an argument for existence of mind: Consider a change in a system, X to Y. X and Y cannot coexist therefore X has to vanishes before Y takes place. Y however cannot comes out of nothingness (remember that there is nothing when X vanishes). Therefore there should exist a mind that experiences X and causes Y.

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bahman
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Re: Mind or minds

Post by bahman » Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:01 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 2:52 am
I know of [ human ] minds but do not know of a [ non human ] Mind
I think the Universe is fundamentally a physical non biological system even though it may have life forms within it such as us for example
And because I think this is how I have described it I do not think that there is a Mind [ or God ] that exists who possesses total knowledge
I do however think absolutely everything is directly or indirectly connected to everything else [ there are no gaps in Existence / Reality ]
Well, if you define mind as essence of any being/thing with ability to experience, decide and cause, then you will see that other thing also experience and cause too. For example cue ball in billiard.

AlexW
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Re: Mind or minds

Post by AlexW » Tue Dec 25, 2018 1:23 am

bahman wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 12:59 pm
I have an argument for existence of mind: Consider a change in a system, X to Y. X and Y cannot coexist therefore X has to vanishes before Y takes place. Y however cannot comes out of nothingness (remember that there is nothing when X vanishes). Therefore there should exist a mind that experiences X and causes Y.
I think we first have to agree on a meaning for the word "mind".

You wrote previously:
"Mind in general, whether is a single Mind or many minds, is essence of any being or thing with ability to experience, decide and cause."
Whereas for me, mind refers to "a person's ability to think and reason; the intellect."
I would limit the concept of "mind" to the arena of thought, whereas you seem to include what is commonly referred to as "consciousness" as an essential "part of" the mind... I know in Buddhism the phrase "everything is mind" is commonly used when pointing to the essence of things, but I find this misleading, as Buddhist texts actually use the word "mind" for what we, nowadays, refer to as consciousness/awareness... I think it is clearer to separate consciousness and mind (thought) as thoughts actually appear "in" consciousness, just like all other experience arises in consciousness, not the other way round.

How I see it, your "argument for existence of mind" is rather an "argument for existence of consciousness" - everything arises from it and everything falls back into it (without actually ever leaving it - whatever arises IS consciousness itself in all its different expressions)

Age
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Re: Mind or minds

Post by Age » Tue Dec 25, 2018 1:31 pm

bahman wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:33 pm
Age wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 3:19 pm
bahman wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:02 pm

Great.

Mind can do any thing which is logically possible depending on Its knowledge and the stuff that binds It.
We are talking about WHAT is Creating the Universe the way it is, right?
Yes.
Age wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 3:19 pm
If Mind or minds have/has existed forever, is within EVERY physical thing, has the ability to experience, decide, and cause, and also with KNOWLEDGE that comes from being able to experience, decide, and cause with and from EVERY physical thing, then sure this Mind or minds would be actually Creating the Universe, the way it is?
Yes.
Age wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:02 am
bahman wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:02 pm

I think that knowledge is unbound and Mind or mind are bounded.
Bounded by what exactly?
Bounded with what they know. That is the natural conclusion of boundlessness of knowledge. No matter how much a mind know there is always possible to know more.
BUT if there is one Mind that DOES KNOW ALL, that is; HAS ALL KNOWLEDGE, then IT ALREADY has that KNOWLEDGE.

If knowledge is unbound, then it would already exist, right? Otherwise, what is bounding knowledge?

And, if knowledge is unbounded, then WHERE is this KNOWLEDGE?

Of course, human beings will always learn and discover more, and thus know more. But remember we are talking about a Mind that already has the KNOWLEDGE to Create the Universe, the way It is.

If you want to still say that there are many minds, then I can show you HOW this one Mind exists. This is, of course, only if you are OPEN enough to the idea that there actually could be one Mind.
bahman wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:33 pm
Age wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:02 am
The very reason I use the term 'Mind' is because It can NOT be bounded. I also use the term 'thoughts', for the apparently different 'minds' because they are obviously bounded.
I know what you are talking about. Mind or God, if there is any, to me is merely the creator.
And, are we NOT talking about WHAT is Creating the Universe the way it is?

You did agree that we are, further up this post.
bahman wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:33 pm
God's knowledge to me is bounded even if it is infinite since there always exists a value larger than infinite.
And what do you propose could be/is that 'value', which is, supposedly, larger than infinite?
bahman wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:33 pm
Age wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:02 am
bahman wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:02 pm
Mind, what I call god. however knows more that mind, other sort of being like human.
One reason human beings are still so confused on this issue is because they continually think, believe and/or say that human beings have their own minds. The actual Truth is there are 'thoughts,' within each and every human body, over a certain age. But, WHERE is the, so called, "human 'mind' "?
Human's mind is where s/he is.
And WHERE is that?

Do you think or believe that a 'he' or a 'she' could be/is a being, which is not made up of physical matter?

There are many upon many other clarifying questions I could ask in relation to just this very few word statement.

We could go on forever with me asking clarifying questions and you responding to each and every one of them. But to speed things up, do you think or know that you already have ALL the answers, which when put together will form a perfect and clear picture of ALL-THERE-IS?
bahman wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:33 pm
Age wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:02 am
There is NO actual evidence for a "human" 'mind', BUT, there is a great deal of evidence of an unbounded, Truly OPEN, part or thing, within human beings that allows them to continually Create and Learn MORE and MORE.
I think I already provide an argument in another thread for existence of mind and causation whenever there is a change. I repeat it here for sake of clarity for the readers: Consider a change in a system, X to Y. X and Y cannot coexist therefore X has to vanishes before Y takes place. Y however cannot comes out of nothingness (remember that there is nothing when X vanishes). Therefore there should exist a mind that experiences X and causes Y.
I UNDERSTOOD this argument first time around.

I also have stated that I accept it and agree with it. I, however, question about your later inference that there are many 'minds', especially since many minds can NOT experience ALL X, and cause ALL Y. But one Mind, however, can experience ALL X's and cause ALL Y's.

If you want to argue that, Therefore there should exist a "mind" that experiences X and causes Y, then the word 'a' infers one. BUT, if you want to insist that there are many minds, then YOUR conclusion should be, Therefore there should exist many minds that experiences X and causes Y.

If, and when, you do, however, I will then question WHY add the word "should"? If ALL the premises are accurate, then the conclusion WOULD just follow accurately, and thus there would NOT be a need for the word "should".

If, however, if YOUR conclusion follows with the words "many minds", then I will, most likely, do some further questioning.

bahman wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:33 pm
Age wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:02 am
bahman wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:02 pm
I can show that there is no absolute God since quality like power is not bounded. So there is always a higher god.
I would like to see that. Especially as what I SEE now is that if there is an absolute power, which I am always SEEING by the way, then that power could be in relation to an absolute God. Also, if that absolute power, was in relation to an absolute God, then there would NOT be any higher god than that God.
The argument is as following:
P1. Power has some value and therefore can be discussed mathematically.
P2. There exists not any bound for any quality, such as power.
P3. Absolute power requires a bound (it is simply maximum in a quality).
C. Therefore absolute power does not exists.
P2. WHY do you say this is true? I SEE the quality that absolute power exerts already. I also SEE the boundaries for quality, such as power.
P3. Can you NOT SEE absolute power already?
C. Can you name one thing more powerful than ALL-THERE-IS?
bahman wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:33 pm
Age wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:02 am


Agreed.

Human beings have this freedom to decide. I call that free-will. However, and just as equally determinism plays a part in human beings. Human beings are TOTALLY FREE to decide between available options, these 'options' by the way are just thoughts, and it is these available options/thoughts that have been pre-determined from past experiences, (or pre-programmed), and thus also determine what can and actually WILL happen in the future.

Free-will and determinism EQUALLY cause what IS going to come and BE.
Yes.
Age wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:02 am


I am just wondering do you have a picture of how EVERY thing fits together perfectly?

If no, then what might help is;

There is a 'human being', which consists of a physical human body and a being within it. I call the being within a human body the 'person'. The 'person' just being the thoughts and emotions, which are by the way both invisible to the human eyes, like a soul or being IS.

There is, also, a 'God-being', which consists of absolutely EVERY physical object and a Being with them. I call the Being within EVERY physical object the 'God'. This 'God' just being thee Mind, which is by the way invisible to the human eyes, like a Spirit IS.

To me:
Thee Being is the invisible source of Energy, or as some might say the Life Force, behind EVERY physical thing, but this Being NEVER forces so It really is just Free Energy. This has NEVER been created as It just IS.
The being is the invisible thoughts and emotions that drive human beings to do what they do.

Human beings are absolutely FREE to choose whatever they want to do. The very reason WHY the God-Being allows this to happen will become much clearer and far more obvious, further "down the track".

And, what you have been calling "thing", and now generally for "object", is just what I call "physical matter".

Thee Being, or the being, is just the One, or the one, living within physical matter.

One KNOWS, and, the other one THINKS it KNOWS. I am sure you would KNOW which one is which here.
I see. I however think that we know without doubt that we are in charge of changes.
Now, 'we', you and I, are back to the beginning. Who/what is the 'we' that you are referring to here? You used the word 'we' twice in this sentence. Is who/what the 'we' is, the exact same in both usages?

Who/what is the 'we' that, supposedly, KNOWS without doubt, and, who/what is the 'we' that is, supposedly, in charge of changes?

I will await your response, before I continue here.
bahman wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:33 pm
Therefore there exists minds that experience the situation, decide and cause. My argument stand unless you object that the very fact that we are in charge of changes is an illusion.
To me anyway, your argument does not YET stand, until I have a clear understanding of who/what these 'we's' are that you say ARE in charge of changes.

From one perspective, I think you are referring to one person.
From another perspective, I think you are referring to ALL human beings.
From another perspective, I think you are referring to ALL animal beings, including the human beings.
From another perspective, I think you are referring to ALL physical objects, things, and beings.
And there are a few other perspectives I am SEEING this from.

When the definitions of ALL of your words are clarified, fit together to form a clear and accurate True picture, then YOUR argument WILL stand. Until then I will just remain OPEN, and seek clarification, through questioning.

By the way there are other things in your argument that need clarification, other than just that one "illusion" proposal that you mention about in relation to objecting.

I KNOW your argument WILL stand, WILL be accepted, and WILL be agreed with, by EVERY one, but just not in its current form.

Age
Posts: 3054
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Mind or minds

Post by Age » Tue Dec 25, 2018 1:39 pm

AlexW wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:54 am
bahman wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:07 pm
is there only a Mind or many minds
Neither.
There is no such thing as a mind at all.

Mind is like Time. There is no such thing as time outside of memories of the past and projections into the future.
Is there any thing outside of memories of the past and projections into the future?
AlexW wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:54 am
It is the same with Mind, there is no mind besides ideas of such a thing.
Are "you" absolutely sure of this?

What happens if, after who/what Mind actually IS is discovered, there are memories of What Mind actually IS?

AlexW wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:54 am
So far no one has ever found a "mind" (or "time")
Are "you" absolutely sure of this, also?

AlexW wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:54 am
- all one will ever find is one thought happening now, and another thought happening now, and another...
Who/What is this "one" that all they will ever find is one thought happening now, and another thought happening now, and another...?

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bahman
Posts: 2277
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: Mind or minds

Post by bahman » Tue Dec 25, 2018 1:53 pm

AlexW wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 1:23 am
bahman wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 12:59 pm
I have an argument for existence of mind: Consider a change in a system, X to Y. X and Y cannot coexist therefore X has to vanishes before Y takes place. Y however cannot comes out of nothingness (remember that there is nothing when X vanishes). Therefore there should exist a mind that experiences X and causes Y.
I think we first have to agree on a meaning for the word "mind".

You wrote previously:
"Mind in general, whether is a single Mind or many minds, is essence of any being or thing with ability to experience, decide and cause."
Whereas for me, mind refers to "a person's ability to think and reason; the intellect."
I would limit the concept of "mind" to the arena of thought, whereas you seem to include what is commonly referred to as "consciousness" as an essential "part of" the mind... I know in Buddhism the phrase "everything is mind" is commonly used when pointing to the essence of things, but I find this misleading, as Buddhist texts actually use the word "mind" for what we, nowadays, refer to as consciousness/awareness... I think it is clearer to separate consciousness and mind (thought) as thoughts actually appear "in" consciousness, just like all other experience arises in consciousness, not the other way round.

How I see it, your "argument for existence of mind" is rather an "argument for existence of consciousness" - everything arises from it and everything falls back into it (without actually ever leaving it - whatever arises IS consciousness itself in all its different expressions)
I consider mind as something bigger than consciousness. Consciousness is where that experience happens. On top of experience we have decision and causation. That is what I use mind instead of consciousness since I couldn't find any better word for my purposes. We could stick to consciousness instead of mind if you prefer for sake of discussion. What do you think of the argument?

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