Stop Using Science To Validate Your Beliefs!

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Veritas Aequitas
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Stop Using Science To Validate Your Beliefs!

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:49 am

Here's a warning, from me to you:
don't look to science for cheap validation, ever, because it will end up breaking your heart.

..
The headlines have different endings, but the beginnings are always the same. Science is an ever-evolving search for knowledge and understanding in our world and universe, and new results crop up all the time. Which is good! After all, if we already had all the answers, we wouldn't need to, you know, keep doing science.

And we all know that the scientific mind is constantly changing. New evidence, new models, new paradigms, new new new. Scientists must, as a matter of obligation, update their beliefs in accordance with new evidence. If we believed the same things we did forty or four hundred years ago, what would even be the point of all this hard work?

We all search for support for our beliefs. Whether to use as ammunition in an argument or to settle our own thoughts so we can get on with our lives, we constantly seek validation. And it's oh-so-tempting to find validation in science. After all, it's science! Scientists know things. They test things. They measure things. They wear lab coats. They speak in incomprehensible jargon. They carry themselves with authority.

Here's a warning, from me to you: don't look to science for cheap validation, ever, because it will end up breaking your heart.

The process of science simply doesn't care what the answer is. Sure, individual scientists may and will have their individual biases and preferences and hopes for a result. But in science the ultimate arbiter is the universe itself. The data we collect decide the outcomes, despite our individual preferences.
Read more at;

https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulmsutte ... 8dfbcc6f27

Agree?

Veritas Aequitas
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Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: Stop Using Science To Validate Your Beliefs!

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:04 am

The typical argument for God exists is the following;
  • P1 Empirical: Science proves X exists
    P2 Transcendental: X is created_by/Linked to God
    C Therefore God exists
How Scientific Knowledge points to God

1. The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today.

2. The universe had a start - what caused it?

3. The universe operates by uniform laws of nature. Why does it?

4. The DNA code informs, programs a cell's behavior.

https://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html
In the above syllogism format use to relate Science to God, there are elements of conflation and equivocation of totally difference sense and perspective.

Science is empirical-rational based.

God is a metaphysical and transcendental based entity.

Metaphysics is something that is totally beyond Science, therefore the premises do not follow to the conclusion.

Why theists are forcing the transcendental God into the empirical box is due to psychology.

surreptitious57
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Re: Stop Using Science To Validate Your Beliefs!

Post by surreptitious57 » Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:30 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Science is empirical rational based

God is a metaphysical and transcendental based entity

Metaphysics is something that is totally beyond Science

Why theists are forcing the transcendental God into the empirical box is due to psychology
Yes - Yes - Yes - Yes - Metaphysics and science have absolutely nothing to do with each other and therefore need to be permanently separated

Believe in God much as you want but do not use science to prove it as it cannot for it only investigates observable phenomena and nothing else

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Stop Using Science To Validate Your Beliefs!

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:34 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:49 am
Here's a warning, from me to you:
don't look to science for cheap validation, ever, because it will end up breaking your heart.

..
The headlines have different endings, but the beginnings are always the same. Science is an ever-evolving search for knowledge and understanding in our world and universe, and new results crop up all the time. Which is good! After all, if we already had all the answers, we wouldn't need to, you know, keep doing science.

And we all know that the scientific mind is constantly changing. New evidence, new models, new paradigms, new new new. Scientists must, as a matter of obligation, update their beliefs in accordance with new evidence. If we believed the same things we did forty or four hundred years ago, what would even be the point of all this hard work?

We all search for support for our beliefs. Whether to use as ammunition in an argument or to settle our own thoughts so we can get on with our lives, we constantly seek validation. And it's oh-so-tempting to find validation in science. After all, it's science! Scientists know things. They test things. They measure things. They wear lab coats. They speak in incomprehensible jargon. They carry themselves with authority.

Here's a warning, from me to you: don't look to science for cheap validation, ever, because it will end up breaking your heart.

The process of science simply doesn't care what the answer is. Sure, individual scientists may and will have their individual biases and preferences and hopes for a result. But in science the ultimate arbiter is the universe itself. The data we collect decide the outcomes, despite our individual preferences.
Read more at;

https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulmsutte ... 8dfbcc6f27

Agree?
So you were arguing for science all along as a foundation now you change because it does not match your subjective beliefs? Kind of hypocritical.

I mean yeah, you can argue one science is really than another, but you would need a scientific argument for it and there is none.

Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 2706
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: Stop Using Science To Validate Your Beliefs!

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:12 am

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:34 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:49 am
Here's a warning, from me to you:
don't look to science for cheap validation, ever, because it will end up breaking your heart.

..
The headlines have different endings, but the beginnings are always the same. Science is an ever-evolving search for knowledge and understanding in our world and universe, and new results crop up all the time. Which is good! After all, if we already had all the answers, we wouldn't need to, you know, keep doing science.

And we all know that the scientific mind is constantly changing. New evidence, new models, new paradigms, new new new. Scientists must, as a matter of obligation, update their beliefs in accordance with new evidence. If we believed the same things we did forty or four hundred years ago, what would even be the point of all this hard work?

We all search for support for our beliefs. Whether to use as ammunition in an argument or to settle our own thoughts so we can get on with our lives, we constantly seek validation. And it's oh-so-tempting to find validation in science. After all, it's science! Scientists know things. They test things. They measure things. They wear lab coats. They speak in incomprehensible jargon. They carry themselves with authority.

Here's a warning, from me to you: don't look to science for cheap validation, ever, because it will end up breaking your heart.

The process of science simply doesn't care what the answer is. Sure, individual scientists may and will have their individual biases and preferences and hopes for a result. But in science the ultimate arbiter is the universe itself. The data we collect decide the outcomes, despite our individual preferences.
Read more at;

https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulmsutte ... 8dfbcc6f27

Agree?
So you were arguing for science all along as a foundation now you change because it does not match your subjective beliefs? Kind of hypocritical.

I mean yeah, you can argue one science is really than another, but you would need a scientific argument for it and there is none.
You missed my point.

As long as the syllogism is consistent, then there is no problem, i.e.
  • P1 Empirical-rational: Science proves those with mental illness have experiences of God existence, i.e. psychological
    P2 Empirical-rational: X has experiences of God existence
    C1 Empirical-rational: God is likely a mentally linked i.e. psychological
Note the consistency of empirical-rational above which provide the direction we could study why people believe God exists.
Whatever findings from the above can be further scientifically researched.

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Eodnhoj7
Posts: 4989
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:18 am

Re: Stop Using Science To Validate Your Beliefs!

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:14 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:12 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:34 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:49 am


Read more at;

https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulmsutte ... 8dfbcc6f27

Agree?
So you were arguing for science all along as a foundation now you change because it does not match your subjective beliefs? Kind of hypocritical.

I mean yeah, you can argue one science is really than another, but you would need a scientific argument for it and there is none.
You missed my point.

As long as the syllogism is consistent, then there is no problem, i.e.
  • P1 Empirical-rational: Science proves those with mental illness have experiences of God existence, i.e. psychological
    P2 Empirical-rational: X has experiences of God existence
    C1 Empirical-rational: God is likely a mentally linked i.e. psychological
Note the consistency of empirical-rational above which provide the direction we could study why people believe God exists.
Whatever findings from the above can be further scientifically researched.
Then you are taking empiricism out of science and claiming a necessary abstract component.

Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 2706
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: Stop Using Science To Validate Your Beliefs!

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:17 am

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:14 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:12 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:34 am

So you were arguing for science all along as a foundation now you change because it does not match your subjective beliefs? Kind of hypocritical.

I mean yeah, you can argue one science is really than another, but you would need a scientific argument for it and there is none.
You missed my point.

As long as the syllogism is consistent, then there is no problem, i.e.
  • P1 Empirical-rational: Science proves those with mental illness have experiences of God existence, i.e. psychological
    P2 Empirical-rational: X has experiences of God existence
    C1 Empirical-rational: God is likely a mentally linked i.e. psychological
Note the consistency of empirical-rational above which provide the direction we could study why people believe God exists.
Whatever findings from the above can be further scientifically researched.
Then you are taking empiricism out of science and claiming a necessary abstract component.
It is common in Science to start with an abstract from abduction as long as the premises are consistently empirical-rational.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abductive_reasoning

There is nothing wrong if I abstract a speculation of a monkey existing in an earth-liked planet 100 light years away because all these are possible empirical-rational elements.

The only problem is if a non-sequitor premises e.g. metaphysical or transcendental premises, e.g. God or soul are forced into the syllogism.

surreptitious57
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Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Stop Using Science To Validate Your Beliefs!

Post by surreptitious57 » Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:46 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
There is nothing wrong if I abstract a speculation of a monkey existing in an earth like
planet 100 light years away because all these are possible empirical rational elements
Unless that speculation can be subject to potential falsification by way of some testable
hypothesis then it remains mere speculation and nothing else even if it is actually true

For if the scientific method is not being employed then science is not actually being done

Veritas Aequitas
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Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: Stop Using Science To Validate Your Beliefs!

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:09 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:46 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
There is nothing wrong if I abstract a speculation of a monkey existing in an earth like
planet 100 light years away because all these are possible empirical rational elements
Unless that speculation can be subject to potential falsification by way of some testable
hypothesis then it remains mere speculation and nothing else even if it is actually true

For if the scientific method is not being employed then science is not actually being done
Because all the elements of the claimed proposition are empirically possible, then the reality is empirically possible.
The only falsification is humans reaching that planet and search everywhere to confirm there are no monkeys in that earth-liked planet.
Otherwise it remains a speculation of an empirical possibility, albeit of 0.00000..001% possibility relative to our present capabilities.

On the other hand beliefs and speculation of God which is transcendental and metaphysical cannot be empirical possibilities, i.e. they are impossibilities.
Not only is God an empirical-rational impossibility it is a pure-rational and logical impossibility.

The only possibility for God's existence is purely psychological and nothing else.

Reflex
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Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:09 pm

Re: Stop Using Science To Validate Your Beliefs!

Post by Reflex » Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:26 am

:lol: Hehehehe. If you can't beat them, smear them. VA is upset with this post:
God is the circle of infinity whose center is everywhere and circumference nowhere. In him, every thing, every where, every when and their every possibility converge in simple unity, a divine simplicity. By logical extension, our truest and innermost self is a God-seed.

As flaky as this sounds, real or imagined, it is not an unreasonable perspective given the ambiguity of modern physics. It's not a lot different than Lawrence Krauss' idea of something from nothing or multiverse theory, the main difference being that it correlates better with the totality of my experience.
As one of the great founders of quantum mechanics said, "The mechanism demands a mysticism."

surreptitious57
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Re: Stop Using Science To Validate Your Beliefs!

Post by surreptitious57 » Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:33 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Not only is God an empirical rational impossibility it is a pure rational and logical impossibility

The only possibility for Gods existence is purely psychological and nothing else
This is only true where the definition of God is metaphysical or supernatural so therefore unfalsifiable
But were he defined as the Universe his existence could be verified since the Universe actually exists
God can literally be defined in any way whatsoever because he is the product of human imagination

Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Stop Using Science To Validate Your Beliefs!

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:50 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:33 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Not only is God an empirical rational impossibility it is a pure rational and logical impossibility

The only possibility for Gods existence is purely psychological and nothing else
This is only true where the definition of God is metaphysical or supernatural so therefore unfalsifiable
But were he defined as the Universe his existence could be verified since the Universe actually exists
God can literally be defined in any way whatsoever because he is the product of human imagination
The universe in scientific terms is possible since it is empirically based.

In a nuance perspective, there is the idea of a "Whole Universe" created by God which in this case is an idea and not a empirical-rational concept.

God can be defined in any perspective, i.e. in a possible empirical-rational perspective or a pseudo-rational perspective which is impossible.

God has been defined as that "bearded man in the sky" this is empirically possible because here all the elements are empirically rational. The question is, bring that bearded man in the sky for empirical-rational verification and testing to justify its existence. It is the same with any other fully empirical based God, i.e. bring the empirical evidences of such a God.

But I have argued, an empirically God is potentially an inferior God which any theist proper if challenged would never accept and there is no likelyhood of available empirical evidence to proof its existence.

Thus the only probable God is an ontological God which is metaphysical and transcendental. But such a God as I had proven is an impossibility.

The fact that theists are caught in this catch-22 dilemma is because the idea of God arise originally from psychological reasons and thus should be resolved on the level of psychology and never by empirical-rational proofs.

My call re the psychology approach is not speculative nor unreasonable because non-theistic spiritual groups [Buddhism, Jainism, etc.] have been doing that for thousands of years with reasonable results.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Stop Using Science To Validate Your Beliefs!

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:56 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:17 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:14 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:12 am

You missed my point.

As long as the syllogism is consistent, then there is no problem, i.e.
  • P1 Empirical-rational: Science proves those with mental illness have experiences of God existence, i.e. psychological
    P2 Empirical-rational: X has experiences of God existence
    C1 Empirical-rational: God is likely a mentally linked i.e. psychological
Note the consistency of empirical-rational above which provide the direction we could study why people believe God exists.
Whatever findings from the above can be further scientifically researched.
Then you are taking empiricism out of science and claiming a necessary abstract component.
It is common in Science to start with an abstract from abduction as long as the premises are consistently empirical-rational.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abductive_reasoning

There is nothing wrong if I abstract a speculation of a monkey existing in an earth-liked planet 100 light years away because all these are possible empirical-rational elements.

The only problem is if a non-sequitor premises e.g. metaphysical or transcendental premises, e.g. God or soul are forced into the syllogism.
Logic is premised in a form of metaphysics as the laws of logic which set the standard for abducitivity are unproven emprically.

Reflex
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Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:09 pm

Re: Stop Using Science To Validate Your Beliefs!

Post by Reflex » Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:24 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:50 am

The universe in scientific terms is possible since it is empirically based.
Sure about that? What emperical evidence supports that? :roll:
Thus the only probable God is an ontological God which is metaphysical and transcendental. But such a God as I had proven is an impossibility.
It must really upset you that science proves you wrong. (Note: I did not say science proves theism right; I said science proves you wrong.)
The fact that theists are caught in this catch-22 dilemma is because the idea of God arise originally from psychological reasons and thus should be resolved on the level of psychology and never by empirical-rational proofs.

My call re the psychology approach is not speculative nor unreasonable because non-theistic spiritual groups [Buddhism, Jainism, etc.] have been doing that for thousands of years with reasonable results.
Even non-theistic religions pray.

Logik
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Re: Stop Using Science To Validate Your Beliefs!

Post by Logik » Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:35 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:12 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:34 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:49 am


Read more at;

https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulmsutte ... 8dfbcc6f27

Agree?
So you were arguing for science all along as a foundation now you change because it does not match your subjective beliefs? Kind of hypocritical.

I mean yeah, you can argue one science is really than another, but you would need a scientific argument for it and there is none.
You missed my point.

As long as the syllogism is consistent, then there is no problem, i.e.
  • P1 Empirical-rational: Science proves those with mental illness have experiences of God existence, i.e. psychological
    P2 Empirical-rational: X has experiences of God existence
    C1 Empirical-rational: God is likely a mentally linked i.e. psychological
Note the consistency of empirical-rational above which provide the direction we could study why people believe God exists.
Whatever findings from the above can be further scientifically researched.
P1 is flawed. Science can’t prove anything.
Science only disproves.

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