Perspective

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Nick_A
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Re: Perspective

Post by Nick_A » Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:40 pm

Reflex wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:54 pm
fooloso4 wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:23 pm
Nick:
Plato wrote that “Man is a being in search of meaning.”
Plato did not say that. Nowhere in Plato’s works will you find this. But I am sure that this will not stop you from repeating it. Attributing it to Plato does not secure its credibility it undermines your own. A single misquote can be considered a mistake, but for you it is common practice and by no means limited to Plato.
Who said what is irrelevant. It’s the meaning that’s important.
It is a common quote. It really means the same as this excerpt from the Apology. As you suggest, it is its meaning which is important.
Apology’, 38 . It reads: ‘… to let no day pass without discussing goodness and all the other subjects about which you hear me talking and examining… is really the very best thing that a man can do, and that life without this sort of examination is not worth living…
For those who the question of meaning is unimportant, why bother with examination?

fooloso4
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Re: Perspective

Post by fooloso4 » Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:55 pm

Reflex:

Who said what is irrelevant. It’s the meaning that’s important.

Except when who said it is supposed to have meaning or significance, intended to add weight to the statement. Nick knows this, otherwise he would not have attributed it to Plato. He would have simply made the statement that man is a being in search of meaning.

He has a long history of doing this.

Nick_A
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Re: Perspective

Post by Nick_A » Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:20 pm

From Plato's Cave allegory:
[Socrates] And if there were a contest, and he had to compete in measuring the shadows with the prisoners who had never moved out of the cave, while his sight was still weak, and before his eyes had become steady (and the time which would be needed to acquire this new habit of sight might be very considerable) would he not be ridiculous? Men would say of him that up he went and down he came without his eyes; and that it was better not even to think of ascending; and if any one tried to loose another and lead him up to the light, let them only catch the offender, and they would put him to death.
This is a good description of the contrast between F4s perspective and mine. F4 would prefer to catch the offender and do whatever the law allows and I would cheer the offender on.

One thing you don't do in the secular world is to look up. Never think of ascending. People have been shot for less

Reflex
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Re: Perspective

Post by Reflex » Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:01 pm

Nick_A wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:20 pm
From Plato's Cave allegory:
[Socrates] And if there were a contest, and he had to compete in measuring the shadows with the prisoners who had never moved out of the cave, while his sight was still weak, and before his eyes had become steady (and the time which would be needed to acquire this new habit of sight might be very considerable) would he not be ridiculous? Men would say of him that up he went and down he came without his eyes; and that it was better not even to think of ascending; and if any one tried to loose another and lead him up to the light, let them only catch the offender, and they would put him to death.
This is a good description of the contrast between F4s perspective and mine. F4 would prefer to catch the offender and do whatever the law allows and I would cheer the offender on.

One thing you don't do in the secular world is to look up. Never think of ascending. People have been shot for less
F4 has a history of assuming people’s intentions and reading into things that were never said.

fooloso4
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Re: Perspective

Post by fooloso4 » Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:36 pm

Nick:
This is a good description of the contrast between F4s perspective and mine.
You do not have a perspective from outside the cave. You do not falsely attribute quotes because you are unaccustomed to the darkness after dwelling in the light.
One thing you don't do in the secular world is to look up.
One thing you do in the secular world is to look it up. It would keep you from falsely attributing statements.
Never think of ascending.
The fact of the matter is that for several years after reading the Republic I thought a great deal about ascending, until it occurred to me that since I had not ascended everything I thought was a product of my imagination. It is not a question of thinking about ascending but of recognizing that you have not.

As Simone Weil said:
You can play the sage, most will not fooled by it, the danger is in fooling yourself.

Nick_A
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Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Perspective

Post by Nick_A » Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:15 pm

fooloso4 wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:36 pm
Nick:
This is a good description of the contrast between F4s perspective and mine.
You do not have a perspective from outside the cave. You do not falsely attribute quotes because you are unaccustomed to the darkness after dwelling in the light.
One thing you don't do in the secular world is to look up.
One thing you do in the secular world is to look it up. It would keep you from falsely attributing statements.
Never think of ascending.
The fact of the matter is that for several years after reading the Republic I thought a great deal about ascending, until it occurred to me that since I had not ascended everything I thought was a product of my imagination. It is not a question of thinking about ascending but of recognizing that you have not.

As Simone Weil said:
You can play the sage, most will not fooled by it, the danger is in fooling yourself.
“When one realizes one is asleep, at that moment one is already half-awake.”― P.D.Ouspensky
My advantage over you is my willingness to admit the human condition as it exists in me. Many people have had momentary experiences of higher consciousness but that is not the issue. Anyone who is serious about acquiring a human perspective has to experience and admit the human condition within them which denies it and keeps one attached to the shadows on the wall. Denying it and preferring to argue superficiality just keeps a person as they are. Unfortunately you are one who prefers to argue among the trees denying the perspective of the forest. You deny yourself the benefits of philosophy for your being. You are not alone. it has become the modern way.

Reflex
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Re: Perspective

Post by Reflex » Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:11 am

Back to perspective.

God is the circle of infinity whose center is everywhere and circumference nowhere. In him, every thing, every where, every when and their every possibility converge in simple unity, a divine simplicity. By logical extension, our truest and innermost self is a God-seed.

As flaky as this sounds, real or imagined, it is not an unreasonable perspective given the ambiguity of modern physics. It's not a lot different than Lawrence Krauss' idea of something from nothing or multiverse theory, the main difference being that it correlates better with the totality of my experience.

Nick_A
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Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Perspective

Post by Nick_A » Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:27 am

Reflex wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:11 am
Back to perspective.

God is the circle of infinity whose center is everywhere and circumference nowhere. In him, every thing, every where, every when and their every possibility converge in simple unity, a divine simplicity. By logical extension, our truest and innermost self is a God-seed.

As flaky as this sounds, real or imagined, it is not an unreasonable perspective given the ambiguity of modern physics. It's not a lot different than Lawrence Krauss' idea of something from nothing or multiverse theory, the main difference being that it correlates better with the totality of my experience.
You will probably like this:
The seed of God is in us.
Given an intelligent
and hardworking farmer,
it will thrive and grow
up into God, whose seed
it is; and accordingly its
fruits will be God-nature.
Pear seeds grow into
pear trees, nut seeds
into nut trees, and
God seeds into God.

+ Meister Eckhart

The problem is how to become a good farmer.

Reflex
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Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:09 pm

Re: Perspective

Post by Reflex » Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:33 am

Aye.... and there's the rub. 8)
Last edited by Reflex on Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

seeds
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Re: Perspective

Post by seeds » Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:55 am

Reflex wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:11 am
Back to perspective.

...By logical extension, our truest and innermost self is a God-seed.
Uh, hello!!! :D

Well said Reflex. Now you are speaking my language.

That’s something I have been stressing for almost 50 years now.
_______

fooloso4
Posts: 281
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 4:42 pm

Re: Perspective

Post by fooloso4 » Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:57 am

Nick:
My advantage over you is my willingness to admit the human condition as it exists in me.
If you are truly willing to admit the human condition as it exists in you then you would cease talking as if you know what is seen when one has transcended that condition. If you are in the cave then you cannot see what is outside the cave.

It is because I am aware of the limits of human knowledge and understanding that I do not say anything about a perspective that transcends those limits.

Reflex
Posts: 951
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:09 pm

A Parable

Post by Reflex » Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:44 am

Two Buddhist Monks were on a journey, one was a senior monk, the other a junior monk. During their journey they approached a raging river and on the river bank stood a young lady. She was clearly concerned about how she would get to the other side of the river without drowning.

The junior monk walked straight past her without giving it a thought and he crossed the river. The senior monk picked up the woman and carried her across the river. He placed her down, they parted ways with woman and on they went with the journey.

In the evening the younger monk came to the elder monk and said, “Sir, as monks, we cannot touch a woman?”

The elder monk answered “yes, brother”.

Then the younger monk asks again, “but then Sir, why is it you lifted that woman by the river?”

The elder monk smiled at him and told him “I left the woman at the river’s edge a long way back, why are you still carrying her?”

Reflex
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Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:09 pm

Re: Perspective

Post by Reflex » Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:48 am

seeds wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:55 am
Reflex wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:11 am
Back to perspective.

...By logical extension, our truest and innermost self is a God-seed.
Uh, hello!!! :D

Well said Reflex. Now you are speaking my language.

That’s something I have been stressing for almost 50 years now.
_______
Contemplating the implications inspires awe. :)

Nick_A
Posts: 4164
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Perspective

Post by Nick_A » Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:01 am

fooloso4 wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:57 am
Nick:
My advantage over you is my willingness to admit the human condition as it exists in me.
If you are truly willing to admit the human condition as it exists in you then you would cease talking as if you know what is seen when one has transcended that condition. If you are in the cave then you cannot see what is outside the cave.

Like Greta, you have this need to make up accusations which are simply untrue. Leaving the cave means becoming consciously able to receive from above and give to below. I've never claimed this ability. I have written of Man's conscious evolution and Einstein's cosmic Man but never claimed to be one. I've written that a vertical conscious path is possible which leads to freedom from cave life but my awareness doesn't suggest having become conscious man. That is just silly. The problem is the spirit killers who do their best to destroy this natural impulse in the young which was discussed in the Secular Intolerance thread.
It is because I am aware of the limits of human knowledge and understanding that I do not say anything about a perspective that transcends those limits.
Reflex introduced the idea that we have within us the seed of the human soul which can mature to become a son of God. It is a gradual process only a rare few are capable of. But why this need to destroy those who have felt their potential because you proudly believe you are "aware of the limits of human knowledge and understanding?" You would be surprised to learn that you have no idea what human being is capable of.

Matthew 11.11
NIV Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he
Just because I've been made aware of this transition between mechanical animal life and conscious human life is not to say that I've made the transition. You may want to restrict yourself to self imposed limits on human conscious evolution but to try and inflict it on others defeats the awakening purpose of philosophy which secularism has become all too skilled at.

fooloso4
Posts: 281
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 4:42 pm

Re: Perspective

Post by fooloso4 » Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:24 am

Nick:
Leaving the cave means becoming consciously able to receive from above and give to below.
That may be what it means to you but it is certainly not what it meant for Plato. You have a habit of mixing your own beliefs in with what others have said, as if they are the ones who have said it. It is a deceptive appeal to authority.
I've never claimed this ability ...
Then you have no knowledge of these things and whatever you say about them is said out of ignorance.
Reflex introduced the idea that we have within us the seed of the human soul which can mature to become a son of God. It is a gradual process only a rare few are capable of. But why this need to destroy those who have felt their potential …
As I have said before, if this is something you believe than have at it, but when you, Nick, shift ground from a belief to an assertion of knowledge, that is problematic. When you advocate a Platonic education based on a belief that for all you know may be wrong, that is problematic.
Just because I've been made aware of this transition between mechanical animal life and conscious human life is not to say that I've made the transition.
You have been made aware of a claim that you believe to be true. Again that shift from belief to a statement of truth.
… the awakening purpose of philosophy …
You know nothing of the awakening purpose of philosophy, and yet you assert it as if it is something you know. If you said simply that you believe there is such a purpose I have not problem with that, but when you try to assert your superiority over those who do not buy into it, that is problematic.

As Simone Weil said:
You can play the sage, most will not fooled by it, the danger is in fooling yourself.

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