Free agent cannot be created

So what's really going on?

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Logik
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Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by Logik » Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:06 am

bahman wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:58 am
Logik wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 7:37 pm
Does the statistical notion of “degrees of freedom” fit into your conception of a “free agent”?
No. By free I only mean that an agent's decision is not subject to options.
Then you are necessarily speaking about deities and omnipotence.

You are speaking of creators not creations.

Ultimately - we are all slaves to the laws of physics.

But I am not sure that an absolutist notion of freedom is useful. Somebody who has 5 options is “freerer” than somebody who has 2.

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bahman
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Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by bahman » Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:31 am

Logik wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:06 am
bahman wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:58 am
Logik wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 7:37 pm
Does the statistical notion of “degrees of freedom” fit into your conception of a “free agent”?
No. By free I only mean that an agent's decision is not subject to options.
Then you are necessarily speaking about deities and omnipotence.

You are speaking of creators not creations.

Ultimately - we are all slaves to the laws of physics.

But I am not sure that an absolutist notion of freedom is useful. Somebody who has 5 options is “freerer” than somebody who has 2.
No, by not subjected, I meant that the agent is not forced to choose an specific option.

Age
Posts: 2118
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by Age » Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:50 am

bahman wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:31 am
Logik wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:06 am
bahman wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:58 am

No. By free I only mean that an agent's decision is not subject to options.
Then you are necessarily speaking about deities and omnipotence.

You are speaking of creators not creations.

Ultimately - we are all slaves to the laws of physics.

But I am not sure that an absolutist notion of freedom is useful. Somebody who has 5 options is “freerer” than somebody who has 2.
No, by not subjected, I meant that the agent is not forced to choose an specific option.
But who is, supposedly, "forced" to choose a specific option.

I certainly do not feel "forced" to choose any specific option.

Can you provide some examples of when I am, supposedly, "forced" to choose a specific option?

Age
Posts: 2118
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by Age » Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:57 am

bahman wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:47 am
-1- wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:42 am
Here is bahman's argument, improved:

1) Everything is caused.
2) Therefore nothing can be free
3) Therefore one cannot cause a thing which is free
Premise 2 needs justification. I used to discuss this in another forum, Catholic, and they were claiming that human is caused, sustained by God, and still is free.
And, what is wrong with this claim.

Human beings ARE caused.
Depending on what definition one uses for the word 'God', God could very easily sustain ALL human beings.
Each and EVERY adult human being IS free, are they not?

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bahman
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Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by bahman » Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:00 am

Age wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:50 am
bahman wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:31 am
Logik wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:06 am

Then you are necessarily speaking about deities and omnipotence.

You are speaking of creators not creations.

Ultimately - we are all slaves to the laws of physics.

But I am not sure that an absolutist notion of freedom is useful. Somebody who has 5 options is “freerer” than somebody who has 2.
No, by not subjected, I meant that the agent is not forced to choose an specific option.
But who is, supposedly, "forced" to choose a specific option.

I certainly do not feel "forced" to choose any specific option.

Can you provide some examples of when I am, supposedly, "forced" to choose a specific option?
When you like an option and dislike another one. The first option causes you to choose it unless you deliberately choose the option you don't like. Most of the time we choose an option we like which means we follow a chain of causality.

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bahman
Posts: 2049
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by bahman » Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:02 am

Age wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:50 am
bahman wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:31 am
Logik wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:06 am

Then you are necessarily speaking about deities and omnipotence.

You are speaking of creators not creations.

Ultimately - we are all slaves to the laws of physics.

But I am not sure that an absolutist notion of freedom is useful. Somebody who has 5 options is “freerer” than somebody who has 2.
No, by not subjected, I meant that the agent is not forced to choose an specific option.
But who is, supposedly, "forced" to choose a specific option.

I certainly do not feel "forced" to choose any specific option.

Can you provide some examples of when I am, supposedly, "forced" to choose a specific option?
You are forced when your decision is caused by an option. This always happens when you like an option and dislike another one. You are of course free to pick up the option you don't like.

Age
Posts: 2118
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by Age » Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:04 am

-1- wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:44 pm
bahman wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:47 am
-1- wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:42 am
Here is bahman's argument, improved:

1) Everything is caused.
2) Therefore nothing can be free
3) Therefore one cannot cause a thing which is free
Premise 2 needs justification. I used to discuss this in another forum, Catholic, and they were claiming that human is caused, sustained by God, and still is free.
They claimed that not due to reason, but due to sticking to the tenets or dogmas required to profess as per their church.

There are many, many religious people who deny to the last drop the most basic and extant empirically observed truths, only because it is incompatible with their faiths.
Just wondering is there any thing that is actually incompatible between what is in religion and what is empirically observed as being true?

I just ask because I do not see any incompatibility between the two.
-1- wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:44 pm
Instead of reforming their faiths' tenets, they try to reform reality to what it is not. Don't use their denial of empirical truths as arguments against empirical truths.

The reason most scientists, most Ph.D.-s, most Nobel Prize Winners, the largest number of educated normal people are atheists, is because they had enough of the bullshit their religions tried to force down their throats.
What is bullshit in religions?

Logik
Posts: 4048
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by Logik » Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:05 am

bahman wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:00 am
Age wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:50 am
bahman wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:31 am

No, by not subjected, I meant that the agent is not forced to choose an specific option.
But who is, supposedly, "forced" to choose a specific option.

I certainly do not feel "forced" to choose any specific option.

Can you provide some examples of when I am, supposedly, "forced" to choose a specific option?
When you like an option and dislike another one. The first option causes you to choose it unless you deliberately choose the option you don't like. Most of the time we choose an option we like which means we follow a chain of causality.
Yes. In economics it is called an opportunity cost.

If I like two options and I have the resources to do both - I can choose both.

Choice is the product of constraints.
Last edited by Logik on Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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bahman
Posts: 2049
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by bahman » Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:05 am

Age wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:57 am
bahman wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:47 am
-1- wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:42 am
Here is bahman's argument, improved:

1) Everything is caused.
2) Therefore nothing can be free
3) Therefore one cannot cause a thing which is free
Premise 2 needs justification. I used to discuss this in another forum, Catholic, and they were claiming that human is caused, sustained by God, and still is free.
And, what is wrong with this claim.

Human beings ARE caused.
Depending on what definition one uses for the word 'God', God could very easily sustain ALL human beings.
Each and EVERY adult human being IS free, are they not?
The argument in OP attacks such a claim. You cannot cause/create something which is free.

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bahman
Posts: 2049
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by bahman » Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:08 am

Logik wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:05 am
bahman wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:00 am
Age wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:50 am


But who is, supposedly, "forced" to choose a specific option.

I certainly do not feel "forced" to choose any specific option.

Can you provide some examples of when I am, supposedly, "forced" to choose a specific option?
When you like an option and dislike another one. The first option causes you to choose it unless you deliberately choose the option you don't like. Most of the time we choose an option we like which means we follow a chain of causality.
Yes. In economics it is called an opportunity cost.

If I like two options and I have the resources to do both - I can choose both.

Choice is the product of constraints.
Yes. But you are free to choose not to buy in spite of the fact that you want it.

Age
Posts: 2118
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by Age » Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:14 am

bahman wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:00 am
Age wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:50 am
bahman wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:31 am

No, by not subjected, I meant that the agent is not forced to choose an specific option.
But who is, supposedly, "forced" to choose a specific option.

I certainly do not feel "forced" to choose any specific option.

Can you provide some examples of when I am, supposedly, "forced" to choose a specific option?
When you like an option and dislike another one. The first option causes you to choose it unless you deliberately choose the option you don't like.
Most of the time we choose an option we like which means we follow a chain of causality.
But none of what you said here shows WHERE i am "forced".

When I like one option over another, and then i CHOOSE that one, that does NOT mean that I was "forced" to choose it. I agree that the LIKING of that option might be partly or even fully what CAUSED me to choose that option, but there was NO "force". I did not HAVE TO choose that option. I could have dismissed both options altogether for example. Either way I was FREE to make a choice, was I not?

Also, it could be argued that even if one chooses the option that they do not like, then they are also following a chain of causality.

I agree that that causality is inevitable, I just do not, yet, see how I am being, supposedly, "forced", and thus I am not free.

Logik
Posts: 4048
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by Logik » Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:16 am

bahman wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:08 am
Yes. But you are free to choose not to buy in spite of the fact that you want it.
Yes. Choosing not to choose is a choice.

I am not sure what your point is?

I can choose to make coffee, tea, coffee and tea; or neither. Each option has its respective cost/consequence.

Age
Posts: 2118
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by Age » Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:19 am

bahman wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:05 am
Age wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:57 am
bahman wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:47 am

Premise 2 needs justification. I used to discuss this in another forum, Catholic, and they were claiming that human is caused, sustained by God, and still is free.
And, what is wrong with this claim.

Human beings ARE caused.
Depending on what definition one uses for the word 'God', God could very easily sustain ALL human beings.
Each and EVERY adult human being IS free, are they not?
The argument in OP attacks such a claim. You cannot cause/create something which is free.
What part of the claim was the "argument" in the opening post actually attacking?

Are human beings caused or not caused?
What is YOUR definition of 'God'?
Are adult human beings free?

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bahman
Posts: 2049
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by bahman » Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:44 am

Age wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:14 am
bahman wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:00 am
Age wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:50 am


But who is, supposedly, "forced" to choose a specific option.

I certainly do not feel "forced" to choose any specific option.

Can you provide some examples of when I am, supposedly, "forced" to choose a specific option?
When you like an option and dislike another one. The first option causes you to choose it unless you deliberately choose the option you don't like.
Most of the time we choose an option we like which means we follow a chain of causality.
But none of what you said here shows WHERE i am "forced".

When I like one option over another, and then i CHOOSE that one, that does NOT mean that I was "forced" to choose it. I agree that the LIKING of that option might be partly or even fully what CAUSED me to choose that option, but there was NO "force". I did not HAVE TO choose that option. I could have dismissed both options altogether for example. Either way I was FREE to make a choice, was I not?

Also, it could be argued that even if one chooses the option that they do not like, then they are also following a chain of causality.

I agree that that causality is inevitable, I just do not, yet, see how I am being, supposedly, "forced", and thus I am not free.
Yes. I meant that you are caused to choose the option you like unless you freely decide to do otherwise.

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bahman
Posts: 2049
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by bahman » Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:47 am

Logik wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:16 am
bahman wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:08 am
Yes. But you are free to choose not to buy in spite of the fact that you want it.
Yes. Choosing not to choose is a choice.

I am not sure what your point is?

I can choose to make coffee, tea, coffee and tea; or neither. Each option has its respective cost/consequence.
The point is that you normally choose the option you like unless you freely decide to do otherwise. You are caused to choose by option in the first case and you freely decide to do otherwise in the second case. You are free if you have the ability to freely decide.

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