Lawrence Krauss

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Lawrence Krauss

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:48 pm

I see Lawrence Krauss is now in the radar of the PCbitchbansheesalemwitchmobhysteria lobby.
Hmm. Some of the greatest scientific minds and educators in the world being silenced by the creeping parasite of ''PCProgressive'' politics.
I'm beginning to wonder if the cancer goes even deeper than I thought; that it's a conspiracy to 'dumb-down' the population even more than it has been already. Or could it be something as banal and shallow as petty jealousy on the part of self-proclaimed feminists (they don't warrant that label) due to the fact that the greatest of essentially everything are invariably male? An opportunity to 'take down' the most creative and high-achieving of the male sex? The PClobby and fundamentalist christian right-wing are starting to become interchangeable. What a nice thought: a demonspawn offspring resulting from the merging of the two; with the worst traits of both parents.

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Re: Lawrence Krauss

Post by fooloso4 » Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:27 pm

vegetariantaxidermy:
Some of the greatest scientific minds and educators in the world being silenced by the creeping parasite of ''PCProgressive'' politics.
I will keep this short since the moderators may determine that “PC” is not a gender philosophy issue and delete it.

There is an awful lot of sloganeering and lazy thinking surrounding “PC”, with excesses on all sides.

One cluster of questions has to do with sexual harassment:

Does such a thing exist? What are its parameters? What are the limits of what should be tolerated? Is it a PC issue? Is it a gender issue?

With regard to Krauss - should the limits of tolerable behavior be elastic, stretching to accommodate the actions of a celebrity scientist? If any of the allegations made against him are true are they actionable offenses?

The same questions should apply to others you might regard as “Some of the greatest scientific minds and educators in the world”. Of course, whether Krauss or anyone else is on that list is a related problem - is there some kind of trade-off between level of contribution and level of offense?

Just what acceptable behavior is is something that we are struggling with. The fact of the matter is that even though some have gone to far in what they consider to be acceptable behavior, it is not a manufactured problem. We should not tolerate someone doing whatever he likes to another person. The boundaries are not always clear, but it does not take a great deal of intelligence to figure out how not to cross them.
The PClobby and fundamentalist christian right-wing are starting to become interchangeable.
It sometimes seems that those who are at the extremes are closer together than those who are somewhere in the middle. Free speech on campus is another example.

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Re: Lawrence Krauss

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:55 pm

''I will keep it short'' :lol:

These 'crimes' don't exist for the general public, so your 'stretching to accommodate celebrities' is a moot point.

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Re: Lawrence Krauss

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:13 pm

So the intellectuals, scientists and creative are being attacked. Hmm. Who does that remind me of?

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Re: Lawrence Krauss

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:22 pm

fooloso4 wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:27 pm
vegetariantaxidermy:
Some of the greatest scientific minds and educators in the world being silenced by the creeping parasite of ''PCProgressive'' politics.
I will keep this short since the moderators may determine that “PC” is not a gender philosophy issue and delete it.

There is an awful lot of sloganeering and lazy thinking surrounding “PC”, with excesses on all sides.

One cluster of questions has to do with sexual harassment:

Does such a thing exist? What are its parameters? What are the limits of what should be tolerated? Is it a PC issue? Is it a gender issue?

With regard to Krauss - should the limits of tolerable behavior be elastic, stretching to accommodate the actions of a celebrity scientist? If any of the allegations made against him are true are they actionable offenses?

The same questions should apply to others you might regard as “Some of the greatest scientific minds and educators in the world”. Of course, whether Krauss or anyone else is on that list is a related problem - is there some kind of trade-off between level of contribution and level of offense?

Just what acceptable behavior is is something that we are struggling with. The fact of the matter is that even though some have gone to far in what they consider to be acceptable behavior, it is not a manufactured problem. We should not tolerate someone doing whatever he likes to another person. The boundaries are not always clear, but it does not take a great deal of intelligence to figure out how not to cross them.
The PClobby and fundamentalist christian right-wing are starting to become interchangeable.
It sometimes seems that those who are at the extremes are closer together than those who are somewhere in the middle. Free speech on campus is another example.
By the way, 99 percent of thread don't belong in the topic they are posted under. It really makes little to no difference. They will be read (or not) regardless.

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Re: Lawrence Krauss

Post by fooloso4 » Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:46 pm

vegetariantaxidermy:
These 'crimes' don't exist for the general public, so your 'stretching to accommodate celebrities' is a moot point.
Sexual harassment certainly does occur.
So the intellectuals, scientists and creative are being attacked. Hmm. Who does that remind me of?
These are the stories that make the news. The guy harassing a co-worker in the mail room is not something you are likely to hear about.

Are you suggesting that intellectuals, scientists and creative are being attacked because of who they are and not because of what they may have done? What if they did what they are accused of doing? What if what they are accused of doing is not something trivial? Or are all such allegations trivial?
By the way, 99 percent of thread don't belong in the topic they are posted under. It really makes little to no difference. They will be read (or not) regardless.
I recently participated in a thread that was deleted because it was not considered political philosophy.

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Re: Lawrence Krauss

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:57 pm

fooloso4 wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:46 pm
vegetariantaxidermy:
These 'crimes' don't exist for the general public, so your 'stretching to accommodate celebrities' is a moot point.
Sexual harassment certainly does occur.
So the intellectuals, scientists and creative are being attacked. Hmm. Who does that remind me of?
These are the stories that make the news. The guy harassing a co-worker in the mail room is not something you are likely to hear about.

Are you suggesting that intellectuals, scientists and creative are being attacked because of who they are and not because of what they may have done? What if they did what they are accused of doing? What if what they are accused of doing is not something trivial? Or are all such allegations trivial?
By the way, 99 percent of thread don't belong in the topic they are posted under. It really makes little to no difference. They will be read (or not) regardless.
I recently participated in a thread that was deleted because it was not considered political philosophy.
Put it this way. If I went to the police and said that some old man had pinched my arse 40 years ago and that I want them to arrest him, what do you think they would say? Or if I said that some guy 'probably' raped me ten years ago because I had a blackout and couldn't remember the night before so I have to assume that I was being raped in the time gap between 3am and 5am?
What if I told the police that they have to believe me because women never lie, are never unstable or vindictive, and never do anything simply for a bit of attention?

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Re: Lawrence Krauss

Post by fooloso4 » Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:50 am

vegetariantaxidermy:
Put it this way. If I went to the police and said that some old man had pinched my arse 40 years ago and that I want them to arrest him, what do you think they would say?
You can put it that way but it ignores what is at issue. As I said, there are allegations that go too far but this does not mean that there are not legitimate complaints. It says nothing about the allegations against Krauss.
Or if I said that some guy 'probably' raped me ten years ago because I had a blackout and couldn't remember the night before so I have to assume that I was being raped in the time gap between 3am and 5am?
That would have to be decided on the merits of the case. If this is the extent of it then I see no merit to the complaint. This says nothing about allegations against Krauss or anyone else.
What if I told the police that they have to believe me because women never lie, are never unstable or vindictive, and never do anything simply for a bit of attention?
What if someone had done what you alleged was done? Should they simply dismiss it because women sometimes lie, are sometimes unstable or vindictive, and somethings do things simply for a bit of attention?

You have said nothing about the allegations brought against Krauss, or any evidence that might support those allegations, or the investigation into those allegations, or what Krauss has said in his own defense, or his decision to resign rather than defend himself.

You also say nothing about the bounds of appropriate behavior. There will still be disagreement regarding what those bounds are, but slogans and criticisms of PC will not deflect from the question of whether Krauss or anyone else who has been accused of inappropriate behavior exceeded those bounds, which can be investigated based on facts and evidence rather than rhetoric.

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Re: Lawrence Krauss

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:16 am

fooloso4 wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:50 am
vegetariantaxidermy:
Put it this way. If I went to the police and said that some old man had pinched my arse 40 years ago and that I want them to arrest him, what do you think they would say?
You can put it that way but it ignores what is at issue. As I said, there are allegations that go too far but this does not mean that there are not legitimate complaints. It says nothing about the allegations against Krauss.
Or if I said that some guy 'probably' raped me ten years ago because I had a blackout and couldn't remember the night before so I have to assume that I was being raped in the time gap between 3am and 5am?
That would have to be decided on the merits of the case. If this is the extent of it then I see no merit to the complaint. This says nothing about allegations against Krauss or anyone else.
What if I told the police that they have to believe me because women never lie, are never unstable or vindictive, and never do anything simply for a bit of attention?
What if someone had done what you alleged was done? Should they simply dismiss it because women sometimes lie, are sometimes unstable or vindictive, and somethings do things simply for a bit of attention?

You have said nothing about the allegations brought against Krauss, or any evidence that might support those allegations, or the investigation into those allegations, or what Krauss has said in his own defense, or his decision to resign rather than defend himself.

You also say nothing about the bounds of appropriate behavior. There will still be disagreement regarding what those bounds are, but slogans and criticisms of PC will not deflect from the question of whether Krauss or anyone else who has been accused of inappropriate behavior exceeded those bounds, which can be investigated based on facts and evidence rather than rhetoric.
There is the law, and evidence, and being innocent until proven guilty. It's politics and you know it. I don't recall any trial, yet Krauss has effectively had his career ruined. And automatically believing women is part of the campaign. Belief has nothing to do with the law. What are we 'believing' anyway? That someone touched someone else 'inappropriately' (which could mean anything) at a party/conference/piss-up .....years ago? So what? Am I really supposed to care?
ps Why don't you just use the 'quote' function? I can't respond to you properly because of your whacked-up method of replying.

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Re: Lawrence Krauss

Post by fooloso4 » Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:50 am

vegetariantaxidermy:
I don't recall any trial, yet Krauss has effectively had his career ruined. And automatically believing women is part of the campaign.
You seem to be unfamiliar with the case. His accusers were not automatically believed. There were multiple allegations and an investigation by the university that found what it considered credible evidence of unprofessional conduct. An agreement was reached, he would resign at the end of the year and the investigation would end. Until then he would continue to to earn his yearly salary. He had the option to appeal but refused stating that it would no longer be an environment he would feel comfortable working in. That is understandable, but whether or not he chose to continue working there, I would think he would be interested in clearing his name.

In the wake of the allegations, Krauss acknowledged that his demeanor may have “made people feel intimidated, uncomfortable, or unwelcome,” and recognized that “the current movement makes clear that my sensitivity, like many others’, can be improved.” https://www.theatlantic.com/science/arc ... te/573844/

Belief has nothing to do with the law.
Of course it does. When determining guilt or innocence the believability of the accuser, defendant, and witnesses play a significant role.

In any case the question is not a legal one, it is about what constitutes inappropriate behavior and what should be done when allegations are made and when there is supporting evidence for the allegations.
What are we 'believing' anyway? That someone touched someone else 'inappropriately' (which could mean anything) at a party/conference/piss-up .....years ago? So what? Am I really supposed to care?
Good question. It speaks to the point I have been making. Your generalized attack on PC does not take the specifics of the case into consideration. The allegations have been ongoing for years, they are not all from years ago.
Why don't you just use the 'quote' function? I can't respond to you properly because of your whacked-up method of replying.
I have been using the quote function. Every quote appears as a block. I have been doing it this way for years on different sites that use the same platform and no one has ever said it was wrong.

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Re: Lawrence Krauss

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:42 am

fooloso4 wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:50 am
vegetariantaxidermy:
I don't recall any trial, yet Krauss has effectively had his career ruined. And automatically believing women is part of the campaign.
You seem to be unfamiliar with the case. His accusers were not automatically believed. There were multiple allegations and an investigation by the university that found what it considered credible evidence of unprofessional conduct. An agreement was reached, he would resign at the end of the year and the investigation would end. Until then he would continue to to earn his yearly salary. He had the option to appeal but refused stating that it would no longer be an environment he would feel comfortable working in. That is understandable, but whether or not he chose to continue working there, I would think he would be interested in clearing his name.

In the wake of the allegations, Krauss acknowledged that his demeanor may have “made people feel intimidated, uncomfortable, or unwelcome,” and recognized that “the current movement makes clear that my sensitivity, like many others’, can be improved.” https://www.theatlantic.com/science/arc ... te/573844/

Belief has nothing to do with the law.
Of course it does. When determining guilt or innocence the believability of the accuser, defendant, and witnesses play a significant role.

In any case the question is not a legal one, it is about what constitutes inappropriate behavior and what should be done when allegations are made and when there is supporting evidence for the allegations.
What are we 'believing' anyway? That someone touched someone else 'inappropriately' (which could mean anything) at a party/conference/piss-up .....years ago? So what? Am I really supposed to care?
Good question. It speaks to the point I have been making. Your generalized attack on PC does not take the specifics of the case into consideration. The allegations have been ongoing for years, they are not all from years ago.
Why don't you just use the 'quote' function? I can't respond to you properly because of your whacked-up method of replying.
I have been using the quote function. Every quote appears as a block. I have been doing it this way for years on different sites that use the same platform and no one has ever said it was wrong.
The 'allegations' are beyond pathetic, even if they were true. Women throw themselves at famous men all the time. Perhaps Tom Jones should have all those women who threw their underwear at him arrested for 'traumatising' him. I never thought I would say this, but women could learn a thing or two from men on how to behave with good humour and just get the fuck over themselves. All men are not rapists. Some actually like women (though fuck knows why, if this ongoing bullshit-fest is anything to go by).
They also need to learn what 'rape' and 'assault' actually mean (or is this all simply a tragic consequence of American illiteracy and general imbecility?)
Keep up the 'good work' ladies: getting rid of the few intelligent Americans in existence. Way to go. Pat yourselves on the back (because no one else will--they might get accused of raping you).

Btw, not a single one of the salemwitchhysteria allegations remotely resembles genuine rape, assault or abuse.

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Re: Lawrence Krauss

Post by Walker » Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:41 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:42 am
(or is this all simply a tragic consequence of American illiteracy and general imbecility?)
The Gotcha Movement began in the press, with politicians Richard Nixon and Gary Hart. Today’s adults reporting the news were raised in the Gotcha Movement. For them, this is reality. They know the script. It’s in the bones. This is how it is done. This is what makes a career.

It’s what folks now expect from the news and accusers know how to feed it. Pick a high-profile target and bring ‘em down, the bigger the better.

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Re: Lawrence Krauss

Post by fooloso4 » Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:49 pm

vegetariantaxidermy:
The 'allegations' are beyond pathetic, even if they were true.
From the Buzzfeed article:
Suddenly, he lifted her by the arms and pushed her onto the bed beneath him, forcibly kissing her and trying to pull down the crotch of her tights. Hensley said she struggled to push him off. When he pulled out a condom, Hensley said, she got out from under him, said “I have to go,” and rushed out of the room.
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/pe ... llegations

Is that acceptable behavior? How much further would it have had to go before it “remotely resembles genuine rape”?

Is it acceptable for him to grab a woman’s breast at a conference? If it is acceptable for him to do that is it acceptable for everyone?

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Re: Lawrence Krauss

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:18 pm

fooloso4 wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:49 pm
vegetariantaxidermy:
The 'allegations' are beyond pathetic, even if they were true.
From the Buzzfeed article:
Suddenly, he lifted her by the arms and pushed her onto the bed beneath him, forcibly kissing her and trying to pull down the crotch of her tights. Hensley said she struggled to push him off. When he pulled out a condom, Hensley said, she got out from under him, said “I have to go,” and rushed out of the room.
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/pe ... llegations

Is that acceptable behavior? How much further would it have had to go before it “remotely resembles genuine rape”?

Is it acceptable for him to grab a woman’s breast at a conference? If it is acceptable for him to do that is it acceptable for everyone?
Ooh. From 'Buzzfeed'.
There's nothing about rape there. Listen dipshit, I'm pretty sure he didn't 'grab a woman's sacred breast' but that's their business, not mine, and does it really warrant destroying someone's life over? There's a video of a young woman reaching through a car window and grabbing Jim Morrison's crotch. He doesn't look terribly perturbed.
Is there something wrong with you? I am so glad that you are such a vision of impeccable propriety.


''Allegations
Allegations against Krauss include “inappropriate behavior, groping women, ogling and making sexist jokes to undergrads, and telling an employee at Arizona State University, where he is a tenured professor, that he was going to buy her birth control so she didn’t inconvenience him with maternity leave.”

''Ogling women, making sexist jokes''.
Oh my god. Someone get out the tar and feathers. Where is it ordained that scientists have to live like asexual monks? Or have perfect characters?
Amerikunts are insane. I suppose you believed workers in childcare centres were really having satanic rituals, hanging children up in cages, urinating on them, taking them into 'the woods' and dancing naked around them etc. etc...?
No doubt you believe that there really were witches in Salem--I mean, women don't lie do they?

Why don't you go and find something to really worry about--like the genocide that your POS country is systematically commiting in the ME?
You don't give a damn about those women, any more than anyone else does. You think you are 'philosophising' and perhaps you are, it's difficult to tell because your writing is so flat and colourless.
Try using logic and reason, instead of carefully cultivated self-important waffle. Think about all the nonsense 'philosophies' that have been adopted and discarded over the centuries, that managed to sway the gullible for a brief time. It's just unfortunate for the latest spate of victims of an evil philosophy that its demise won't come soon enough for them.

Hmm. I see you like to 'quote philosophers' and pass it off as an argument. Why don't you try thinking for yourself? That's the only way to construct a coherent argument.

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Re: Lawrence Krauss

Post by fooloso4 » Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:26 pm

Vegetariantaxidermy:
Btw, not a single one of the salemwitchhysteria allegations remotely resembles genuine rape, assault or abuse.
There's nothing about rape there.
I’ll ask you again, how much further would it have had to go before it “remotely resembles genuine rape”?

The allegation is that he pushed her onto the bed, forcibly kissing her and trying to pull down the crotch of her tights, and pulled out a condom, at which point she escaped.

Krauss does not deny that this happened but claims it was consensual. Whatever the truth of the matter is, it should not be dismissed by claiming that "the 'allegations' are beyond pathetic, even if it is true". Or do you think such behavior, if true, is acceptable?
I'm pretty sure he didn't 'grab a woman's sacred breast' but does it really warrant destroying someone's life over?
I assume you mean that if you are wrong and he did grab her. If he did it then I see no reason why she should not have complained. Now it may be you would not have said anything. It may even be that you enjoy being groped by strangers or perhaps by “some of the greatest scientific minds and educators in the world”, but that does not mean that someone who does not wish to be groped should just shut up and put up with such behavior.

One thing seems certain, as long as such behavior is ignored or winked at or shrugged at it will continue. Universities have standards of behavior. Krauss is not exempt from those standards. Both public and private institutions have codes of ethics. Do you take issue with there being a code of ethics? Do you take issue with particular policies? Krauss was or at least should have been aware of the university’s policies. He violated them. Violation can be cause for dismissal. Rather than defend himself against the charges he resigned.

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