What if God is weak?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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TimeSeeker
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Re: What if God is weak?

Post by TimeSeeker » Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:30 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:28 pm
You still need a Universe for any quantum conception to occur in no matter how empty or small that may actually be
Entanglement between two particles can occur instantaneously over any space so a Universe would be useful for this
The reason I am toying with you is because you fail to separate linguistics from epistemology.

In English "The Universe" is a proper AND collective noun for all the things THAT exist!

It is the boundary (edge case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edge_case ) of epistemology. To falsify the claim "The Universe exists" you need to make an observation of a non-existing universe. Which is redactio ad absurdum!

Anything that is untestable/unfalsifiable yet it is ACCEPTED to be true is an axiom. A tautology. Try it. You will see I am right.

The statement "The Universe exists" is expressed in logic as a single symbol: U - thus, axiom. First assumption.
Logic does NOT work until you allow SOMETHING to be true. It's a non-starter!

This is the strict criterion for Verificationism ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verificationism ) and its weaker form confirmation.
Verificationism, also known as the verification idea or the verifiability criterion of meaning, is the philosophical doctrine that only statements that are empirically verifiable (i.e. verifiable through the senses) are cognitively meaningful, or else they are truths of logic (tautologies).
Verificationism bridges the gap between logic and empiricism.

surreptitious57
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Re: What if God is weak?

Post by surreptitious57 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:38 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
So the existence of the universe is axiomatic ?
The Universe is empirical because it exists as an observable phenomena
Axioms pertain to the non empirical or conceptual so are something else

TimeSeeker
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Re: What if God is weak?

Post by TimeSeeker » Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:42 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:38 pm
The Universe is empirical because it exists as an observable phenomena
Axioms pertain to the non empirical or conceptual so are something else
No, it isn't.

Quarks, leptons and electrons are observable phenomena. Spacetime is a measurable phenomenon. Entanglement is a measurable phenomenon. Gravity is a measurable phenomenon. Galaxies, stars and black holes are measurable phenomena. The CMB is a measurable phenomenon. Everything that you CONCEPTUALIZE as being "INSIDE" the universe is observable.

The Universe itself isn't observable. Because it's a noun! It is the biggest category in your head. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6de ... ical_proof

The only way you can observe "the universe" if you step outside it! And sat right next to God. OR if there is a multiverse. We can observe OTHER universes. And they can observe OUR universe.

surreptitious57
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Re: What if God is weak?

Post by surreptitious57 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:52 pm

When I say the Universe is an observable phenomena I do not mean in any absolute sense
Obviously it is impossible to observe it in its entirety so I mean in a [ very ] limited sense

TimeSeeker
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Re: What if God is weak?

Post by TimeSeeker » Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:53 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:52 pm
When I say the Universe is an observable phenomena I do not mean in any absolute sense
Obviously it is impossible to observe it in its entirety so I mean in a [ very ] limited sense
You mean it in the sense that you can observe the CONTENTS of the universe. But not The Universe itself.

Because The Universe is just a collective/proper noun ;)

The curse of categorization: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categorization
According to the classical view, categories should be clearly defined, mutually exclusive and collectively exhaustive. This way, any entity of the given classification universe belongs unequivocally to one, and only one, of the proposed categories.
Look. It's much of a muchness. A distinction without a difference.

This place we find ourselves in doesn't care one bit about what we "believe" or say about it. I can reject its existence or admit I don't know anything about it and contradict myself all I want. Neither of us are going to disappear into a black hole paradox.

You prefer a conception where your feet are planted on terra firma (The Universe).
I am comfortable floating in the sky. Uncertainty/not knowing doesn't bother me.

Besides the word "universe" is much easier to elucidate than "everything that exists".
It's a pragmatic choice.

I simply have no particular use for the phrase "The universe exists". I can't even fathom why I would utter such a thing. I think it's an axiom nobody rejects, and therefore everybody tacitly accepts.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: What if God is weak?

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:54 am

If God is not weak, the God does not exist fully and hence is not God.

gaffo
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Re: What if God is weak?

Post by gaffo » Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:18 am

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:54 am
If God is not weak, the God does not exist fully and hence is not God.
or the alternative -which you ignored.

evil.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: What if God is weak?

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:12 pm

gaffo wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:18 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:54 am
If God is not weak, the God does not exist fully and hence is not God.
or the alternative -which you ignored.

evil.
Not really, because if God was omnipresent he is present in all things and strictly any act of evil is a distortion of Good with the evil not being anything in itself.

For example in a rape, the act itself is evil. But the natural law of conception is still a degree of good, hence even in an evil act a degree of good can result. This does not eliminate the evil act for what it is, but rather observes that all evil acts are dependent on the existence of some good and evil cannot exist on its own terms.

gaffo
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Re: What if God is weak?

Post by gaffo » Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:31 am

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:12 pm
gaffo wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:18 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:54 am
If God is not weak, the God does not exist fully and hence is not God.
or the alternative -which you ignored.

evil.
Not really, because if God was omnipresent he is present in all things and strictly any act of evil is a distortion of Good with the evil not being anything in itself.

For example in a rape, the act itself is evil. But the natural law of conception is still a degree of good, hence even in an evil act a degree of good can result. This does not eliminate the evil act for what it is, but rather observes that all evil acts are dependent on the existence of some good and evil cannot exist on its own terms.
don't bullshit me, you claimed the old argument of "good God, but is weak so world is full of evil", I posit that your view of God good but weak is biased. i propose he is evil and strong.

you are full bullshit sophistry BTW sir - my 2cents (not that you asked nor will)( - try knowing yourself/liking/being self best friend - and overcome your sub/trauma.

ok done with rant.

"I am Good yet allow evil" - in the Torah, so ya per your above post.

Belinda
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Re: What if God is weak?

Post by Belinda » Sun Dec 02, 2018 8:29 pm

'God is weak' is a good description of God in the case that God is defined not as an entity, and not as an all powerful being, and not a name for existence itself.

'God is weak' follows from the idea of God as a set of values which men try to manifest in their lives. Any given set of unmanifested values is weak in the sense that it is potential at best.

Reflex
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Re: What if God is weak?

Post by Reflex » Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:02 am

I suggested in the beginning that anyone interested in the question posed in the OP to read The Weakness of God.

fooloso4
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Re: What if God is weak?

Post by fooloso4 » Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:54 pm

Caputo’s notion of the weakness of God is linked via Derrida to Lurianic Kabbalah. Luria’s notion of ‘tzimtzum’, God’s self limiting, leads to a need to repair the world, ‘tikkun olam’. This is man’s task. It is a call to action.

So, to answer the question, if God is weak then man must act. It is man’s responsibility to establish peace and justice.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: What if God is weak?

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:05 pm

gaffo wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:31 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:12 pm
gaffo wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:18 am


or the alternative -which you ignored.

evil.
Not really, because if God was omnipresent he is present in all things and strictly any act of evil is a distortion of Good with the evil not being anything in itself.

For example in a rape, the act itself is evil. But the natural law of conception is still a degree of good, hence even in an evil act a degree of good can result. This does not eliminate the evil act for what it is, but rather observes that all evil acts are dependent on the existence of some good and evil cannot exist on its own terms.
don't bullshit me, you claimed the old argument of "good God, but is weak so world is full of evil", I posit that your view of God good but weak is biased. i propose he is evil and strong.

Actually I don't claim any of what you just said. God must be strong and weak if God is ominscient, and beyond both strength and weakness at the same time considering strength and weakness are premised in relativity. God must also be neither strong nor weak considering God is beyond strength and weakness.

So God, according to you is evil and strong...so is strength only an evil quality then?


you are full bullshit sophistry BTW sir - my 2cents (not that you asked nor will)( - try knowing yourself/liking/being self best friend - and overcome your sub/trauma.

Actually it is far from sophistry:

"the use of fallacious arguments, especially with the intention of deceiving."https://www.bing.com/search?q=sophistry ... 5CF76CADC5


I talk about fallacy plenty of times. I mean let's face it, you claim my argument is fallacious...okay, but you do not point out the fallacy. Then you continue on with the ad-hominums, falling into the same trap you claim I am guilty of. One moment you say I am wise, another moment I am a fool. I don't care either way personally, I think your freak out stems from this thread and the inability for you to answer a question.

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=25399&start=30

Based off the accusations and behavior, not that I really know you, it appears you are just projecting personal issues you are dealing with.




ok done with rant.

"I am Good yet allow evil" - in the Torah, so ya per your above post.

If God allowed no choice he would be evil for all good must be free chosen.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: What if God is weak?

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:06 pm

Reflex wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:02 am
I suggested in the beginning that anyone interested in the question posed in the OP to read The Weakness of God.
So what is stability?

Reflex
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Re: What if God is weak?

Post by Reflex » Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:29 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:06 pm
Reflex wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:02 am
I suggested in the beginning that anyone interested in the question posed in the OP to read The Weakness of God.
So what is stability?
No such thing.

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