Universe can't be infinite.

So what's really going on?

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TimeSeeker
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Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by TimeSeeker »

attofishpi wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 3:55 pm Sorry, i'm not that into emotis. But sure, I am not not your typical buy bull bashing suck down the eucharist and don't chew on Christ with your mouth open.

You may not have seen a post I have questioned you in within another thread. But, I have a comprehension that whatever the 3rd party intelligence is -
'God' if you will formed our reality, indeed the logic required for it, from the chaos of the early universe. Within that thread you questioned infinite regress, well, is there such a thing where logic stems from chaos? In other words, can we infinitely regress through chaos?
Mathematics is man-made. It's a tool like any other.
I don't know what "God" is because nobody has ever given me a Mathematical model for it.

The cause for the infinite regress is because I have a copy of "The Universe" in my head.
So there is a "map of the universe" IN The Universe.

From your point of view this is where the recursion comes from. I am manipulating the map, not the territory.
And so if the map contains map of "self holding a map" - ooops!

Recursion is computation. That's all I know :)

We are regressing because of the Halting problem. The search for truth has no exit criteria.
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attofishpi
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Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by attofishpi »

TimeSeeker wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:00 pm
attofishpi wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 3:55 pm Sorry, i'm not that into emotis. But sure, I am not not your typical buy bull bashing suck down the eucharist and don't chew on Christ with your mouth open.

You may not have seen a post I have questioned you in within another thread. But, I have a comprehension that whatever the 3rd party intelligence is -
'God' if you will formed our reality, indeed the logic required for it, from the chaos of the early universe. Within that thread you questioned infinite regress, well, is there such a thing where logic stems from chaos? In other words, can we infinitely regress through chaos?
Mathematics is man-made. It's a tool like any other.
I don't know what "God" is because nobody has ever given me a Mathematical model for it.

The cause for the infinite regress is because I have a copy of "The Universe" in my head.
So there is a "map of the universe" IN The Universe.

From your point of view this is where the recursion comes from. I am manipulating the map, not the territory.

Recursion is computation. That's all I know :)
Since knowing this 3rd party entity exists - and the very fact that it is like a 'pointer' holding our conscious position within the material universe, one of its attributes is, and sorry for attempting to make you take my word for it, it that it knows everything within my mind, knowing i'm nothing special - perhaps just unique, I have little reason to doubt that it remains - like a pointer (eg within a C program) holding the same for all persons! A way of accessing the stored database of our minds. Sorry, a hard pill to swallow without experience and testing for ones self. Recursion is its most elegant and efficient means for traversing the matter of our consciousness - perhaps taking our souls to the next form of matter (that's another entire story filled in to me by a sage - another time perhaps) Reincarnation.

I'd like to delve into entropy though and the reason perhaps - for this 3rd parties existence...
TimeSeeker
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Re: Universe can't be infinite.

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attofishpi wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:07 pm Since knowing this 3rd party entity exists - and the very fact that it is like a 'pointer' holding our conscious position within the material universe, one of its attributes is, and sorry for attempting to make you take my word for it, it that it knows everything within my mind, knowing i'm nothing special - perhaps just unique, I have little reason to doubt that it remains - like a pointer (eg within a C program) holding the same for all persons! A way of accessing the stored database of our minds. Sorry, a hard pill to swallow without experience and testing for ones self. Recursion is its most elegant and efficient means for traversing the matter of our consciousness - perhaps taking our souls to the next form of matter (that's another entire story filled in to me by a sage - another time perhaps) Reincarnation.
Nah. I buy you way of thinking. Recursion is computation. Because it's computation all the constructs from computer science apply when talking about "metaphysics" (algorithms, data structures, problem-solving strategies, decision theory). It's all part&parcel.

In that language for me the word "God" is a null-pointer. It doesn't point to anything valid as far as I can tell.

That's why when engineers speak to each other onlookers think it's "word salad". It's just a private language. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_language_argument

Because we have mental models for all these things we can build consensus like no other!
Philosophers got it all wrong - the goal is not to disagree. The goal is to agree!

Society is just a distributed system: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consensus ... r_science)
Last edited by TimeSeeker on Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by attofishpi »

TimeSeeker wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:11 pm
attofishpi wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:07 pm Since knowing this 3rd party entity exists - and the very fact that it is like a 'pointer' holding our conscious position within the material universe, one of its attributes is, and sorry for attempting to make you take my word for it, it that it knows everything within my mind, knowing i'm nothing special - perhaps just unique, I have little reason to doubt that it remains - like a pointer (eg within a C program) holding the same for all persons! A way of accessing the stored database of our minds. Sorry, a hard pill to swallow without experience and testing for ones self. Recursion is its most elegant and efficient means for traversing the matter of our consciousness - perhaps taking our souls to the next form of matter (that's another entire story filled in to me by a sage - another time perhaps) Reincarnation.
Nah. I buy you way of thinking. Recursion is computation. Because it's computation all the constructs from computer science apply when talking about "metaphysics".

In that language for me the word "God" is a null-pointer. It doesn't point to anything valid as far as I can tell.

That's why when engineers speak to each other onlookers think it's "word salad". It's just a private language. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_language_argument

Because we have mental models for all these things we can build consensus like no other!
Philosophers got it all wrong - the goal is not to disagree. The goal is to agree!

Society is just a distributed system: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consensus ... r_science)
Again - you timeseek too quick and missed my last addition:-
I'd like to delve into entropy though and the reason perhaps - for this 3rd parties existence...

and hey - God is far from a null pointer!!
Last edited by attofishpi on Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
TimeSeeker
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Re: Universe can't be infinite.

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attofishpi wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:14 pm Again - you timeseek too quick and missed my last addition:-
I'd like to delve into entropy though and the reason perhaps - for this 3rd parties existence...
I don't know what entropy is. I don't think anybody does. Also it's a bit of an ambiguous object.

Because psychologically entropy appears to be EXACTLY THE SAME phenomenon as ignorance. It's our blind spot.

Lack of information.
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devans99
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Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by devans99 »

Re entropy, the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics says if the universe has been around for ever then it should be in thermodynamic equilibrium by now. But the universe is not in thermodynamic equilibrium. So time must have had a start.
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Re: Universe can't be infinite.

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devans99 wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:16 pm Re entropy, the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics says if the universe has been around for ever then it should be in thermodynamic equilibrium by now. But the universe is not in thermodynamic equilibrium. So time must have had a start.
The 2nd law of thermodynamics also applies to closed systems. Is the universe a closed system?

If it is - then where is all the energy radiating off to as we head towards the heat death?
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Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by attofishpi »

TimeSeeker wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:15 pm
attofishpi wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:14 pm Again - you timeseek too quick and missed my last addition:-
I'd like to delve into entropy though and the reason perhaps - for this 3rd parties existence...
I don't know what entropy is. I don't think anybody does. Also it's a bit of an ambiguous object.

Because psychologically entropy appears to be EXACTLY THE SAME phenomenon as ignorance. It's our blind spot.

Lack of information.
Bah! ..and again you didn't wait for my little:- God is NO NULL pointer.
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Re: Universe can't be infinite.

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attofishpi wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:17 pm Bah! ..and again you didn't wait for my little:- God is NO NULL pointer.
It is to me.

But I am willing to entertain any definitions which are NOT null-pointers. Haven't encountered any yet :)
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Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by attofishpi »

TimeSeeker wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:17 pm
devans99 wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:16 pm Re entropy, the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics says if the universe has been around for ever then it should be in thermodynamic equilibrium by now. But the universe is not in thermodynamic equilibrium. So time must have had a start.
The 2nd law of thermodynamics also applies to closed systems. Is the universe a closed system?

If it is - then where is all the energy radiating off to as we head towards the heat death?
If we take the Solar system, for all intents and purposes of man's disposition, it can be classified as a closed entropy system.
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Re: Universe can't be infinite.

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attofishpi wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:19 pm If we take the Solar system, for all intents and purposes of man's disposition, it can be classified as a closed entropy system.
That may be a pragmatic/simplifying assumption but it is not true.

Gravity. Interstellar comets. Galactic cosmic rays. Interstellar clouds. Probably missing a bunch...
Last edited by TimeSeeker on Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
devans99
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Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by devans99 »

attofishpi wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:19 pm
TimeSeeker wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:17 pm
devans99 wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:16 pm Re entropy, the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics says if the universe has been around for ever then it should be in thermodynamic equilibrium by now. But the universe is not in thermodynamic equilibrium. So time must have had a start.
The 2nd law of thermodynamics also applies to closed systems. Is the universe a closed system?

If it is - then where is all the energy radiating off to as we head towards the heat death?
If we take the Solar system, for all intents and purposes of man's disposition, it can be classified as a closed entropy system.
Yes the fact that the sun is still burning means we are still far from maximum entropy.
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Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by attofishpi »

TimeSeeker wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:24 pm
attofishpi wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:19 pm If we take the Solar system, for all intents and purposes of man's disposition, it can be classified as a closed entropy system.
That may be a pragmatic/simplifying assumption but it is not true.

Gravity. Interstellar comets. Galactic cosmic rays. Probably missing a bunch...
Fizzles that dizzle and dally ...not worth a pinch of salt with what comes down to man's predicament where it comes to entropy.

I'm probably gonna have to call it a night.
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Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by attofishpi »

devans99 wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:25 pm
attofishpi wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:19 pm
TimeSeeker wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:17 pm
The 2nd law of thermodynamics also applies to closed systems. Is the universe a closed system?

If it is - then where is all the energy radiating off to as we head towards the heat death?
If we take the Solar system, for all intents and purposes of man's disposition, it can be classified as a closed entropy system.
Yes the fact that the sun is still burning means we are still far from maximum entropy.
Regardless - the entropy is increasing.
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Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by devans99 »

attofishpi wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:28 pm
devans99 wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:25 pm
attofishpi wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:19 pm

If we take the Solar system, for all intents and purposes of man's disposition, it can be classified as a closed entropy system.
Yes the fact that the sun is still burning means we are still far from maximum entropy.
Regardless - the entropy is increasing.
Which implies a start of time.
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