Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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SteveKlinko
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Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by SteveKlinko » Sat Nov 17, 2018 5:13 pm

The Physicalists on this and other forums complain about three basic statements that I have made. They seem to show an emotionalism in their replies that reveals a hidden frustration with their inability to address the statements in any coherent way. They are getting more and more Delirious. They are self appointed Guardians of the knowledge base of Science but that knowledge base is empty with regard to questions about Consciousness. They will not admit that there is Zero Scientific understanding of Consciousness so they resort to Insults and other Diversionary tactics that only reveal their ignorance. If Science cannot deal with Something then that Something can only be Supernatural or Religious in their way of thinking. They therefore need to make that Something go away rather than trying to study it more and come up with a Scientific Explanation. This necessarily implies that they think that Science has obtained all the knowledge that it will ever obtain. But this is not the Science that I know. I have been taught and expect that Science is discovering New Phenomena all the time. Here are the three statements that annoy the Physicalists to the point of mental breakdown:

1) Science has Zero, I repeat Zero, understanding with regard to Consciousness.
2) Conscious experiences are in a whole different Category of Phenomena than any known Scientific Category of Phenomena.
3) The Conscious experience of Pain can give an Organism or Animal a statistical Evolutionary survival advantage that can affect the Evolution of that Organism or Animal.

As for the first statement, the Physicalists say things like: The Neural Activity IS the Conscious Activity and then they say that Explains it, end of discussion. This is Naïve and Shallow beyond all reasonableness. It isn't even a good Scientific guess. It is Pure Belief. It's so bad I have to think the Physicalists are not really serious when they say things like this but are just messing with me. They think that Measuring Neural Activity IS the same thing as Measuring the Conscious Activity. They are Measuring the Neural Correlates of Conscious experience not the Conscious experience itself. They treat the actual Conscious experience as if it did not even exist. I can not understand how they get to this point in their Physicalist delirium. To perpetuate the Physicalist Belief they must Deny the actual existence of the Conscious experience. The Conscious experience of something like the Redness of Red is a Self Evident reality of the Universe, and they deny it. The Conscious experience of Redness is something that Science cannot Explain. The Self evident reality of it is that it exists only in the Mind. They know the Redness exists in the Mind because they See it too but still they must deny this Self Evident Phenomenon of Consciousness because if it did exist Science would have to Explain it. But Science cannot Explain it at this point in time.

The second statement points out how the Physicalists might come to understand that Science doesn't have any Knowledge of what Conscious experience could be. If Conscious experience could be found to be in any known Category of Scientific Phenomena then Science would have had a lot to say about Consciousness by now. Instead we get Silence. Conscious experience is in a Category all by itself and this new Category of Phenomena has not been integrated into the Scientific knowledge base yet. Science does not know what to do with this Category of Phenomena. Since Science does not know what to do with this Category of Conscious Phenomena the Physicalists say it is Supernatural or Religious. It's neither of these, it's simply not understood yet. Don't be afraid you little Physicalists those scary Conscious experiences will not hurt you.

I think the third statement is completely sensible from even the most basic understanding of Evolutionary mechanisms. The Physicalists completely oppose this statement however. I don't know how they can justify thinking that the Conscious experience of Pain will not actually increase the statistical Evolutionary survival advantage for an Organism or Animal and thus influence Evolutionary outcomes for an Organism or Animal. And it is not just Pain but all the multitudes of other Conscious experiences that exist in the Universe. I suppose the opposition to this is because it admits the existence of Conscious experience which they Deny. So because they have to Deny Conscious experience they must Deny a basic premise of Evolution. They say that Evolutionary literature does not mention Conscious experience so therefore the Conscious experience of Pain cannot influence Evolutionary outcomes. This takes Shallow thinking and fear of what's outside the Box to extremes. I'll go so far as to say that if Evolutionary literature does not take into account Conscious experience then Evolutionary literature needs a Big Update.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:19 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 5:13 pm
The Physicalists on this and other forums complain about three basic statements that I have made. They seem to show an emotionalism in their replies that reveals a hidden frustration with their inability to address the statements in any coherent way. They are getting more and more Delirious. They are self appointed Guardians of the knowledge base of Science but that knowledge base is empty with regard to questions about Consciousness. They will not admit that there is Zero Scientific understanding of Consciousness so they resort to Insults and other Diversionary tactics that only reveal their ignorance. If Science cannot deal with Something then that Something can only be Supernatural or Religious in their way of thinking. They therefore need to make that Something go away rather than trying to study it more and come up with a Scientific Explanation. This necessarily implies that they think that Science has obtained all the knowledge that it will ever obtain. But this is not the Science that I know. I have been taught and expect that Science is discovering New Phenomena all the time. Here are the three statements that annoy the Physicalists to the point of mental breakdown:

1) Science has Zero, I repeat Zero, understanding with regard to Consciousness.
2) Conscious experiences are in a whole different Category of Phenomena than any known Scientific Category of Phenomena.
3) The Conscious experience of Pain can give an Organism or Animal a statistical Evolutionary survival advantage that can affect the Evolution of that Organism or Animal.

As for the first statement, the Physicalists say things like: The Neural Activity IS the Conscious Activity and then they say that Explains it, end of discussion. This is Naïve and Shallow beyond all reasonableness. It isn't even a good Scientific guess. It is Pure Belief. It's so bad I have to think the Physicalists are not really serious when they say things like this but are just messing with me. They think that Measuring Neural Activity IS the same thing as Measuring the Conscious Activity. They are Measuring the Neural Correlates of Conscious experience not the Conscious experience itself. They treat the actual Conscious experience as if it did not even exist. I can not understand how they get to this point in their Physicalist delirium. To perpetuate the Physicalist Belief they must Deny the actual existence of the Conscious experience. The Conscious experience of something like the Redness of Red is a Self Evident reality of the Universe, and they deny it. The Conscious experience of Redness is something that Science cannot Explain. The Self evident reality of it is that it exists only in the Mind. They know the Redness exists in the Mind because they See it too but still they must deny this Self Evident Phenomenon of Consciousness because if it did exist Science would have to Explain it. But Science cannot Explain it at this point in time.

The second statement points out how the Physicalists might come to understand that Science doesn't have any Knowledge of what Conscious experience could be. If Conscious experience could be found to be in any known Category of Scientific Phenomena then Science would have had a lot to say about Consciousness by now. Instead we get Silence. Conscious experience is in a Category all by itself and this new Category of Phenomena has not been integrated into the Scientific knowledge base yet. Science does not know what to do with this Category of Phenomena. Since Science does not know what to do with this Category of Conscious Phenomena the Physicalists say it is Supernatural or Religious. It's neither of these, it's simply not understood yet. Don't be afraid you little Physicalists those scary Conscious experiences will not hurt you.

I think the third statement is completely sensible from even the most basic understanding of Evolutionary mechanisms. The Physicalists completely oppose this statement however. I don't know how they can justify thinking that the Conscious experience of Pain will not actually increase the statistical Evolutionary survival advantage for an Organism or Animal and thus influence Evolutionary outcomes for an Organism or Animal. And it is not just Pain but all the multitudes of other Conscious experiences that exist in the Universe. I suppose the opposition to this is because it admits the existence of Conscious experience which they Deny. So because they have to Deny Conscious experience they must Deny a basic premise of Evolution. They say that Evolutionary literature does not mention Conscious experience so therefore the Conscious experience of Pain cannot influence Evolutionary outcomes. This takes Shallow thinking and fear of what's outside the Box to extremes. I'll go so far as to say that if Evolutionary literature does not take into account Conscious experience then Evolutionary literature needs a Big Update.
Science is on the verge of losing many people due not just to its elitism, but that fact it has made promises to a better future it cannot hold. That and quantum mechanics really is fucking it as everything is connected and we are left to look inwards for truth...for lack of better wording.

Science has become a religion which promised us a better world, without scientifically stating what that better world is in one respect and not keeping these heavily subjective promises in another.

It is a business whose ethics system is no better than the modern Catholic Church, and in some respects worse as it has no scientific base for these ethics systems.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:23 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:19 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 5:13 pm
The Physicalists on this and other forums complain about three basic statements that I have made. They seem to show an emotionalism in their replies that reveals a hidden frustration with their inability to address the statements in any coherent way. They are getting more and more Delirious. They are self appointed Guardians of the knowledge base of Science but that knowledge base is empty with regard to questions about Consciousness. They will not admit that there is Zero Scientific understanding of Consciousness so they resort to Insults and other Diversionary tactics that only reveal their ignorance. If Science cannot deal with Something then that Something can only be Supernatural or Religious in their way of thinking. They therefore need to make that Something go away rather than trying to study it more and come up with a Scientific Explanation. This necessarily implies that they think that Science has obtained all the knowledge that it will ever obtain. But this is not the Science that I know. I have been taught and expect that Science is discovering New Phenomena all the time. Here are the three statements that annoy the Physicalists to the point of mental breakdown:

1) Science has Zero, I repeat Zero, understanding with regard to Consciousness.
2) Conscious experiences are in a whole different Category of Phenomena than any known Scientific Category of Phenomena.
3) The Conscious experience of Pain can give an Organism or Animal a statistical Evolutionary survival advantage that can affect the Evolution of that Organism or Animal.

As for the first statement, the Physicalists say things like: The Neural Activity IS the Conscious Activity and then they say that Explains it, end of discussion. This is Naïve and Shallow beyond all reasonableness. It isn't even a good Scientific guess. It is Pure Belief. It's so bad I have to think the Physicalists are not really serious when they say things like this but are just messing with me. They think that Measuring Neural Activity IS the same thing as Measuring the Conscious Activity. They are Measuring the Neural Correlates of Conscious experience not the Conscious experience itself. They treat the actual Conscious experience as if it did not even exist. I can not understand how they get to this point in their Physicalist delirium. To perpetuate the Physicalist Belief they must Deny the actual existence of the Conscious experience. The Conscious experience of something like the Redness of Red is a Self Evident reality of the Universe, and they deny it. The Conscious experience of Redness is something that Science cannot Explain. The Self evident reality of it is that it exists only in the Mind. They know the Redness exists in the Mind because they See it too but still they must deny this Self Evident Phenomenon of Consciousness because if it did exist Science would have to Explain it. But Science cannot Explain it at this point in time.

The second statement points out how the Physicalists might come to understand that Science doesn't have any Knowledge of what Conscious experience could be. If Conscious experience could be found to be in any known Category of Scientific Phenomena then Science would have had a lot to say about Consciousness by now. Instead we get Silence. Conscious experience is in a Category all by itself and this new Category of Phenomena has not been integrated into the Scientific knowledge base yet. Science does not know what to do with this Category of Phenomena. Since Science does not know what to do with this Category of Conscious Phenomena the Physicalists say it is Supernatural or Religious. It's neither of these, it's simply not understood yet. Don't be afraid you little Physicalists those scary Conscious experiences will not hurt you.

I think the third statement is completely sensible from even the most basic understanding of Evolutionary mechanisms. The Physicalists completely oppose this statement however. I don't know how they can justify thinking that the Conscious experience of Pain will not actually increase the statistical Evolutionary survival advantage for an Organism or Animal and thus influence Evolutionary outcomes for an Organism or Animal. And it is not just Pain but all the multitudes of other Conscious experiences that exist in the Universe. I suppose the opposition to this is because it admits the existence of Conscious experience which they Deny. So because they have to Deny Conscious experience they must Deny a basic premise of Evolution. They say that Evolutionary literature does not mention Conscious experience so therefore the Conscious experience of Pain cannot influence Evolutionary outcomes. This takes Shallow thinking and fear of what's outside the Box to extremes. I'll go so far as to say that if Evolutionary literature does not take into account Conscious experience then Evolutionary literature needs a Big Update.
Science is on the verge of losing many people due not just to its elitism, but that fact it has made promises to a better future it cannot hold. That and quantum mechanics really is fucking it as everything is connected and we are left to look inwards for truth...for lack of better wording.

Science has become a religion which promised us a better world, without scientifically stating what that better world is in one respect and not keeping these heavily subjective promises in another.

It is a business whose ethics system is no better than the modern Catholic Church, and in some respects worse as it has no scientific base for these ethics systems.

It represents not just the destruction of the environment and the fabric of society, but is unable to save it without doing further harm. It resulted in all the technological advancements that led to mass killing unrivaled in history while giving no meaning to the lives of the everyday person.

Isn't it funny for how high a standard Western Civilization places on physics that these civilization are not only falling apart but cannot pass there knowledge onto the next generation? It is a wizard of oz show, people see an equation and assume there is some deep truth behind it when in reality the equation strictly acts as magic to get people to give up on thinking.

SteveKlinko
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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by SteveKlinko » Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:56 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:23 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 5:13 pm
Science is on the verge of losing many people due not just to its elitism, but that fact it has made promises to a better future it cannot hold. That and quantum mechanics really is fucking it as everything is connected and we are left to look inwards for truth...for lack of better wording.

Science has become a religion which promised us a better world, without scientifically stating what that better world is in one respect and not keeping these heavily subjective promises in another.

It is a business whose ethics system is no better than the modern Catholic Church, and in some respects worse as it has no scientific base for these ethics systems.

It represents not just the destruction of the environment and the fabric of society, but is unable to save it without doing further harm. It resulted in all the technological advancements that led to mass killing unrivaled in history while giving no meaning to the lives of the everyday person.

Isn't it funny for how high a standard Western Civilization places on physics that these civilization are not only falling apart but cannot pass there knowledge onto the next generation? It is a wizard of oz show, people see an equation and assume there is some deep truth behind it when in reality the equation strictly acts as magic to get people to give up on thinking.
It is funny. Science does impart a certain amount of Magic to their equations.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:37 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:56 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:23 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 5:13 pm
Science is on the verge of losing many people due not just to its elitism, but that fact it has made promises to a better future it cannot hold. That and quantum mechanics really is fucking it as everything is connected and we are left to look inwards for truth...for lack of better wording.

Science has become a religion which promised us a better world, without scientifically stating what that better world is in one respect and not keeping these heavily subjective promises in another.

It is a business whose ethics system is no better than the modern Catholic Church, and in some respects worse as it has no scientific base for these ethics systems.

It represents not just the destruction of the environment and the fabric of society, but is unable to save it without doing further harm. It resulted in all the technological advancements that led to mass killing unrivaled in history while giving no meaning to the lives of the everyday person.

Isn't it funny for how high a standard Western Civilization places on physics that these civilization are not only falling apart but cannot pass there knowledge onto the next generation? It is a wizard of oz show, people see an equation and assume there is some deep truth behind it when in reality the equation strictly acts as magic to get people to give up on thinking.
It is funny. Science does impart a certain amount of Magic to their equations.
Actually it is not funny at all (I am lying ROFL...it is hilarious) considering one interpretation for "M Theory" was possibly "Magic Theory".

Reflex
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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by Reflex » Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:31 pm

Here’s an interesting article: The Present Phase of Stagnation in the Foundations of Physics Is Not Normal.

Maybe scientists should study the role consciousness has.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:04 pm

Reflex wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:31 pm
Here’s an interesting article: The Present Phase of Stagnation in the Foundations of Physics Is Not Normal.

Maybe scientists should study the role consciousness has.
Interesting article, you should make a thread out of it.


We are going to see a time where academia is going to have to revert back to philosophy to contain the current mess of "knowledge". It will most likely be a slow gradual movement, because of the lack of foundations in philosophy being premised on a relativism.

However the nature of knowledge growth, as observed within the article in physics, is actually rational for it shows a frequency so to speak. With the progress of knowledge comes an inevitable decline in one respect considering this progress shows that knowledge has a nature of movement as directed by time.

We inevitably are going to have to address, at the level of metaphysics, the nature of measurement and consciousness as fundamentally a reflective process where symmetry is a process of repitition giving structure to the knowledge we seek as a form of knowledge in itself.

The present age of consciousness and quantum mechanics is a fatal wound to the physicists in these regards as it inevitably shows and gives some degree of proof that the knowledge they observe may be equally, under some circumstances, made up. The philosophical question, imposed by not just these findings or maybe better put "implications" in modern physics, is fundamentally one of the "nature of creation" as both a static and active nature.

One may argue that findings are effectively "created" but this not necessarily nullify the fact that this is an objective statement, and as an objective statements is not just subject to certain laws but exists as a law in itself. Creation may in fact be a rational process that while premised in philosophy, extends to mathematics and correspondingly physics as well.

Reflex
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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by Reflex » Wed Nov 28, 2018 3:07 am

Your response is similar to "holophany."

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QuantumT
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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by QuantumT » Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:22 pm

In an older thread in this forum, some time ago, a physicalist actually convinced me (for a while) that duality is just particles changing behavior due to decoherence (when the measurement is made). When in fact there is no evidence at all to support that. It's practically unprovable.

But that's the thing with them. Only their interpretation can be true. In that sense they are almost religious about their "facts".

SteveKlinko
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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by SteveKlinko » Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:55 pm

Reflex wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:31 pm
Here’s an interesting article: The Present Phase of Stagnation in the Foundations of Physics Is Not Normal.

Maybe scientists should study the role consciousness has.
Yes. They need to figure out How to study Consciousness. They really don't know How or they would have by now.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:28 pm

Reflex wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 3:07 am
Your response is similar to "holophany."
I read a few pages, and agree with some of the text, but I was talking about points and circles well before any awareness to the text you mentioned. Certain truths are just observed within the fabric of the human condition and expressed in a variety of manners...including the Prime Triad I argue as well as Holophany, with this being inherent characteristics of both...they are just different points on the same sphere.

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