Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

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creativesoul
Posts: 771
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:41 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:20 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:16 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:26 am

Agreed. Is this sufficient criterion for you to call it "thinking"?
No. It is adequate for simple rudimentary thought/belief formation.
So rudimentary thought/belief formation is different from "thinking"?
Yes. Thinking would consist of correlations consisting of prior correlations.

creativesoul
Posts: 771
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:44 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:26 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:51 pm
If you thought of anything other than some pre-existing notion of Santa, then you were thinking about something other than Santa.
Fat guy in a red suit. Brings gifts to children during Christmas.
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:51 pm
Tomorrow never exists in it's entirety. Your thoughts of tomorrow do.
Santa doesn't exist in its entirety either. Only thoughts of Santa do. Exactly like tomorrow.
Right. The key difference, of course, is that with Santa you do not determine what counts as Santa; whereas with thoughts of tomorrow now, you do. Both are about what has not happened. As is false belief. As is all prediction.

TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:44 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:41 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:20 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:16 pm


No. It is adequate for simple rudimentary thought/belief formation.
So rudimentary thought/belief formation is different from "thinking"?
Yes. Thinking would consist of correlations consisting of prior correlations.
So. Memory?

creativesoul
Posts: 771
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:49 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:31 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:59 pm
Phenomenologists are people who use language in a very specific way as a means to think about thought/belief.
Disagree. Phenomenology is a mental activity not a linguistic one.
Your agreement isn't necessary. Phenomenology is a philosophical notion which describes mental activity and it uses language to do so.

TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:50 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:44 pm
Right. The key difference, of course, is that with Santa you do not determine what counts as Santa.
Why not? It's an idea that has grown organically through society. In some countries Santa wears green. In other - he wears red. Slavic cultures have Ded Moroz ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ded_Moroz ). He wears blue.

Because it's organic - it means that people altered the idea over time. So I can alter it too.

What are the fundamental properties (identity!) of the thing that makes it "Santa" ? At what point in the evolution does it stop being Santa?

When we cut his beard off? When he loses 25 kilograms? When he stops bringing gifts?


This line of reasoning leads exactly down the path of phenomenology. What is the essence of Santa? I bet you can't put it in a box...

creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:44 pm
whereas with thoughts of tomorrow now, you do. Both are about what has not happened. As is false belief. As is all prediction.

TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:51 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:49 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:31 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:59 pm
Phenomenologists are people who use language in a very specific way as a means to think about thought/belief.
Disagree. Phenomenology is a mental activity not a linguistic one.
Your agreement isn't necessary. Phenomenology is a philosophical notion which describes mental activity and it uses language to do so.
Having practiced phenomenology since the age of 5 and to this day - i am telling you that it doesn't require language. Only spatial memory. My head is a real-time 3D animation.

It is only expressed in language because - communication barrier.
Last edited by TimeSeeker on Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

creativesoul
Posts: 771
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:52 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:44 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:41 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:20 pm

So rudimentary thought/belief formation is different from "thinking"?
Yes. Thinking would consist of correlations consisting of prior correlations.
So. Memory?
I don't know if I'd call it memory. Memory requires drawing the same correlations again, and that can include drawing correlations consisting of prior correlations, but I'm undecided as of yet about how to sensibly situate memory.

TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:54 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:52 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:44 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:41 pm


Yes. Thinking would consist of correlations consisting of prior correlations.
So. Memory?
I don't know if I'd call it memory. Memory requires drawing the same correlations again, and that can include drawing correlations consisting of prior correlations, but I'm undecided as of yet about how to sensibly situate memory.
Any ability to adapt requires persistence/updating of information in your nervous system. Otherwise your behavior is necessarily deterministic/static. Read-only firmware.

Same input will always produce the same output.

creativesoul
Posts: 771
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:00 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:50 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:44 pm
Right. The key difference, of course, is that with Santa you do not determine what counts as Santa.
Why not? It's an idea that has grown organically through society. In some countries Santa wears green. In other - he wears red. Slavic cultures have Ded Moroz ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ded_Moroz ). He wears blue.
You didn't determine any of that. It was already determined and presented to you as what counts as Santa. That's why not. Santa is existentially dependent upon thought/belief. Santa consists entirely of thought/belief. Not yours though.
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:50 pm
This line of reasoning leads exactly down the path of phenomenology. What is the essence of Santa? I bet you can't put it in a box...
Talk of essence is fraught. Avoid it.

The point is/was that you thought of that which existed in it's entirety in both cases...

creativesoul
Posts: 771
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:02 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:51 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:49 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:31 pm

Disagree. Phenomenology is a mental activity not a linguistic one.
Your agreement isn't necessary. Phenomenology is a philosophical notion which describes mental activity and it uses language to do so.
Having practiced phenomenology since the age of 5 and to this day - i am telling you that it doesn't require language. Only spatial memory. My head is a real-time 3D animation.

It is only expressed in language because - communication barrier.
You're conflating the name of a philosophical position with your own recollection of your own mental activity.

TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:05 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:00 pm
You didn't determine any of that. It was already determined and presented to you as what counts as Santa. That's why not. Santa is existentially dependent upon thought/belief. Santa consists entirely of thought/belief. Not yours though.
I grew up in both cultures. Communist (Ded Moroz) and later in my life (Santa). And while both of those characters are given to me by the cultures I grew up in are you suggesting to that I am not allowed to merge the two ideas and synthesise a new one sharing the aspects that I like and want to keep from each?

TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:50 pm
The point is/was that you thought of that which existed in it's entirety in both cases...
Well, you can't possibly know that ;) If I have synthesised my own conception is it still Santa?

Suppose that it shares: 90%, 66%, 51% or 55% of Santa's features. Where do you draw the line on it no longer being Santa?

TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:07 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:02 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:51 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:49 pm


Your agreement isn't necessary. Phenomenology is a philosophical notion which describes mental activity and it uses language to do so.
Having practiced phenomenology since the age of 5 and to this day - i am telling you that it doesn't require language. Only spatial memory. My head is a real-time 3D animation.

It is only expressed in language because - communication barrier.
You're conflating the name of a philosophical position with your own recollection of your own mental activity.
I am not conflating it. I am using the methods described by a philosophical position as a point of reference/comparison to what goes on in my own head.

Instead of re-inventing the wheel and trying to define it from first principles I am simply choosing to give you an ostensive definition ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostensive_definition ) by pointing at phenomenology and saying "this is aproximatelly what I am talking about".

It creates a starting point/context which is 85% correct. I can shape and make minor alterations to explain myself to get it to 95%.
Last edited by TimeSeeker on Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

creativesoul
Posts: 771
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:07 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:54 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:52 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:44 pm

So. Memory?
I don't know if I'd call it memory. Memory requires drawing the same correlations again, and that can include drawing correlations consisting of prior correlations, but I'm undecided as of yet about how to sensibly situate memory.
Any ability to adapt requires persistence/updating of information in your nervous system. Otherwise your behavior is necessarily deterministic/static. Read-only firmware.

Same input will always produce the same output.
Talk of input and output is utterly inadequate for taking proper account of thought/belief for it fails to be able to account for all the stuff that happens in between.

TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:10 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:07 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:54 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:52 pm


I don't know if I'd call it memory. Memory requires drawing the same correlations again, and that can include drawing correlations consisting of prior correlations, but I'm undecided as of yet about how to sensibly situate memory.
Any ability to adapt requires persistence/updating of information in your nervous system. Otherwise your behavior is necessarily deterministic/static. Read-only firmware.

Same input will always produce the same output.
Talk of input and output is utterly inadequate for taking proper account of thought/belief for it fails to be able to account for all the stuff that happens in between.
What happens in between is more Black boxes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_box
Add them as necessary to elucidate your conception of "thinking".
And you can model your black boxes as 1:1, 1:Many. Many:Many inputs and outputs.

If you can't model it with N black boxes - you don't have a clue what happens either..

Black boxes are universal.

creativesoul
Posts: 771
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:20 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:07 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:02 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:51 pm

Having practiced phenomenology since the age of 5 and to this day - i am telling you that it doesn't require language. Only spatial memory. My head is a real-time 3D animation.

It is only expressed in language because - communication barrier.
You're conflating the name of a philosophical position with your own recollection of your own mental activity.
I am not conflating it. I am using the methods described by a philosophical position as a point of reference/comparison to what goes on in my own head.
Ah. I see. You drew correlations between the philosophical notion of phenomenology and your own mental ongoings and you did so without language...

Clear as mud.

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