Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

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TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:07 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:02 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:51 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:49 pm


Your agreement isn't necessary. Phenomenology is a philosophical notion which describes mental activity and it uses language to do so.
Having practiced phenomenology since the age of 5 and to this day - i am telling you that it doesn't require language. Only spatial memory. My head is a real-time 3D animation.

It is only expressed in language because - communication barrier.
You're conflating the name of a philosophical position with your own recollection of your own mental activity.
I am not conflating it. I am using the methods described by a philosophical position as a point of reference/comparison to what goes on in my own head.

Instead of re-inventing the wheel and trying to define it from first principles I am simply choosing to give you an ostensive definition ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostensive_definition ) by pointing at phenomenology and saying "this is aproximatelly what I am talking about".

It creates a starting point/context which is 85% correct. I can shape and make minor alterations to explain myself to get it to 95%.
Last edited by TimeSeeker on Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

creativesoul
Posts: 771
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:07 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:54 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:52 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:44 pm

So. Memory?
I don't know if I'd call it memory. Memory requires drawing the same correlations again, and that can include drawing correlations consisting of prior correlations, but I'm undecided as of yet about how to sensibly situate memory.
Any ability to adapt requires persistence/updating of information in your nervous system. Otherwise your behavior is necessarily deterministic/static. Read-only firmware.

Same input will always produce the same output.
Talk of input and output is utterly inadequate for taking proper account of thought/belief for it fails to be able to account for all the stuff that happens in between.

TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:10 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:07 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:54 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:52 pm


I don't know if I'd call it memory. Memory requires drawing the same correlations again, and that can include drawing correlations consisting of prior correlations, but I'm undecided as of yet about how to sensibly situate memory.
Any ability to adapt requires persistence/updating of information in your nervous system. Otherwise your behavior is necessarily deterministic/static. Read-only firmware.

Same input will always produce the same output.
Talk of input and output is utterly inadequate for taking proper account of thought/belief for it fails to be able to account for all the stuff that happens in between.
What happens in between is more Black boxes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_box
Add them as necessary to elucidate your conception of "thinking".
And you can model your black boxes as 1:1, 1:Many. Many:Many inputs and outputs.

If you can't model it with N black boxes - you don't have a clue what happens either..

Black boxes are universal.

creativesoul
Posts: 771
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:20 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:07 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:02 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:51 pm

Having practiced phenomenology since the age of 5 and to this day - i am telling you that it doesn't require language. Only spatial memory. My head is a real-time 3D animation.

It is only expressed in language because - communication barrier.
You're conflating the name of a philosophical position with your own recollection of your own mental activity.
I am not conflating it. I am using the methods described by a philosophical position as a point of reference/comparison to what goes on in my own head.
Ah. I see. You drew correlations between the philosophical notion of phenomenology and your own mental ongoings and you did so without language...

Clear as mud.

creativesoul
Posts: 771
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:22 pm

The algorithm you're employing as a means to respond to what I've written is quite loose.

TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:22 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:20 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:07 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:02 pm


You're conflating the name of a philosophical position with your own recollection of your own mental activity.
I am not conflating it. I am using the methods described by a philosophical position as a point of reference/comparison to what goes on in my own head.
Ah. I see. You drew correlations between the philosophical notion of phenomenology and your own mental ongoings and you did so without language...

Clear as mud.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

The point is I practiced the mental process for 15 years and I tried to (and failed to) narrate it on a number of occasions. Phenomenology gave me the language to call it 'phenomenology' and it helped me narrate it.

DOING Phenomenology happened before acquiring the language to call it that.
Last edited by TimeSeeker on Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:23 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:22 pm
The algorithm you're employing as a means to respond to what I've written is quite loose.
How precise a model do you want?

creativesoul
Posts: 771
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:25 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:10 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:07 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:54 pm

Any ability to adapt requires persistence/updating of information in your nervous system. Otherwise your behavior is necessarily deterministic/static. Read-only firmware.

Same input will always produce the same output.
Talk of input and output is utterly inadequate for taking proper account of thought/belief for it fails to be able to account for all the stuff that happens in between.
What happens in between is more Black boxes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_box
Add them as necessary to elucidate your conception of "thinking".
And you can model your black boxes as 1:1, 1:Many. Many:Many inputs and outputs.

If you can't model it with N black boxes - you don't have a clue what happens either..

Black boxes are universal.
:mrgreen:

May as well invoke God here. It has the exact same explanatory power as the Black box notion you've invoked.

TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:26 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:25 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:10 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:07 pm


Talk of input and output is utterly inadequate for taking proper account of thought/belief for it fails to be able to account for all the stuff that happens in between.
What happens in between is more Black boxes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_box
Add them as necessary to elucidate your conception of "thinking".
And you can model your black boxes as 1:1, 1:Many. Many:Many inputs and outputs.

If you can't model it with N black boxes - you don't have a clue what happens either..

Black boxes are universal.
:mrgreen:

May as well invoke God here. It has the exact same explanatory power as the Black box notion you've invoked.
If it makes useful predictions, and less errors than flipping a coin - I don't really care. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_models_are_wrong

Explanation is not on my agenda. Prediction/control is.
Last edited by TimeSeeker on Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

creativesoul
Posts: 771
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:28 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:22 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:20 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:07 pm

I am not conflating it. I am using the methods described by a philosophical position as a point of reference/comparison to what goes on in my own head.
Ah. I see. You drew correlations between the philosophical notion of phenomenology and your own mental ongoings and you did so without language...

Clear as mud.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

The point is I practiced the mental process for 15 years and I tried to (and failed to) narrate it on a number of occasions. Phenomenology gave me the language to call it 'phenomenology' and it helped me narrate it.

DOING Phenomenology happened before acquiring the language to call it that.
So you're saying that phenomenology offered a description that resonated with you about your previous mental ongoings that had been basically ineffable prior to?

Phenomenology helped you come to acceptable terms with your own mental ongoings.

Is that about right?

TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:31 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:28 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:22 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:20 pm


Ah. I see. You drew correlations between the philosophical notion of phenomenology and your own mental ongoings and you did so without language...

Clear as mud.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

The point is I practiced the mental process for 15 years and I tried to (and failed to) narrate it on a number of occasions. Phenomenology gave me the language to call it 'phenomenology' and it helped me narrate it.

DOING Phenomenology happened before acquiring the language to call it that.
So you're saying that phenomenology offered a description that resonated with you about your previous mental ongoings that had been basically ineffable prior to?

Phenomenology helped you come to acceptable terms with your own mental ongoings.

Is that about right?
Somewhat - yeah. I never sought coming to terms with it. I just tripped over my inability to express my mental process when people asked me about it.

And because I am apparently effective/efficient at getting things done they ask me a lot. So I figured I ought to try and make it communicable. Phenomenology helped me make it communicable.

I was (am?) a doer, not a talker.

creativesoul
Posts: 771
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:37 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:31 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:28 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:22 pm

:roll: :roll: :roll:

The point is I practiced the mental process for 15 years and I tried to (and failed to) narrate it on a number of occasions. Phenomenology gave me the language to call it 'phenomenology' and it helped me narrate it.

DOING Phenomenology happened before acquiring the language to call it that.
So you're saying that phenomenology offered a description that resonated with you about your previous mental ongoings that had been basically ineffable prior to?

Phenomenology helped you come to acceptable terms with your own mental ongoings.

Is that about right?
Somewhat - yeah. I never sought coming to terms with it. I just tripped over my inability to express my mental process when people asked me about it.

And they ask me a lot. So I figured I ought to try and make it communicable. Phenomenology helped me make it communicable.

I was (am?) a doer, not a talker.
One can be both... a doer and a talker...

Explain it to me here and now...

What is this process you speak of that phenomenology gave you the words for?

TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:39 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:37 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:31 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:28 pm


So you're saying that phenomenology offered a description that resonated with you about your previous mental ongoings that had been basically ineffable prior to?

Phenomenology helped you come to acceptable terms with your own mental ongoings.

Is that about right?
Somewhat - yeah. I never sought coming to terms with it. I just tripped over my inability to express my mental process when people asked me about it.

And they ask me a lot. So I figured I ought to try and make it communicable. Phenomenology helped me make it communicable.

I was (am?) a doer, not a talker.
One can be both... a doer and a talker...

Explain it to me here and now...

What is this process you speak of that phenomenology gave you the words for?
The process of bracketing a.k.a phenomenological reduction.

creativesoul
Posts: 771
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:46 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:23 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:22 pm
The algorithm you're employing as a means to respond to what I've written is quite loose.
How precise a model do you want?
Well, one that provides a response based upon more than just synonyms of some words I've used words would be nice. I mean, how about one that determined how to respond by virtue of knowing what it would take for my claims to be true/false? That would be a relevant response based upon shared meaning.

:mrgreen:

creativesoul
Posts: 771
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:47 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:39 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:37 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:31 pm

Somewhat - yeah. I never sought coming to terms with it. I just tripped over my inability to express my mental process when people asked me about it.

And they ask me a lot. So I figured I ought to try and make it communicable. Phenomenology helped me make it communicable.

I was (am?) a doer, not a talker.
One can be both... a doer and a talker...

Explain it to me here and now...

What is this process you speak of that phenomenology gave you the words for?
The process of bracketing a.k.a phenomenological reduction.
I asked you to explain it for me.

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