Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

What did you say? And what did you mean by it?

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creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:24 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:20 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:17 pm
"Hey, there's a spider on your shoulder!"

Everyone who knows what that means will also know whether or not it is true.

If you want to say that this does not involve them having a conception of "truth", I wouldn't argue for truth is understood prior to conceptions of "truth".
You have created an image of a spider on my shoulder in my mind. Maybe there isn't one. Maybe you are pranking me.

Your words have evoked an image of a spider on my shoulder in my mind.

And? Which is the truth/belief part there?
You want a list?

:mrgreen:

Which one of those claims do you not believe to be true?

TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:31 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:24 pm
Which one of those claims do you not believe to be true?
What do you mean by "believe to be true"?

You have informed me that there is a spider on my shoulder. This causes an image of a spider to appear in my mind. Since I would want to remove a spider from my shoulder gently/set it free and I have no reason to suspect deception from you I will probably look at my shoulder. At that moment I will either see a spider there or I will not.

If I see a spider - then I will remove it.
If I don't see a spider - I will probably say something like "Where?"
And at this point you will either giggle (suggesting that you've pranked me)
Or you will reach and remove a spider off my shoulder (which I have failed to see in my field of vision).

I can go in more detail and higher resolution about the thoughts that go through my head and the decisions that I make as I collect more information.

In this detailed movie I have set out. Where is the "truth" and "belief" in this interaction?
Last edited by TimeSeeker on Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

creativesoul
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Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:35 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:31 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:24 pm
Which one of those claims do you not believe to be true?
What do you mean by "believe to be true"?

You have informed me that there is a spider on my shoulder. This causes an image of a spider to appear in my mind. Since I would want to remove a spider from my shoulder gently/set it free I will probably look at my shoulder. At that moment I will either see a spider there or I will not.

If I see a spider - then I will remove it.
If I don't see a spider - I will probably say something like "Where?"
And at this point you will either giggle (suggesting that you've pranked me for intentions/reasons of your own
Or you will reach and remove a spider off my shoulder (which I have failed to see in my field of vision).

I can go in more detail and higher resolution about the thoughts that go through my head and the decisions that go on in my head as I collect more information.

In this detailed movie I have painted. Where is the "truth" and "belief" ?
Do you believe what you write?

TimeSeeker
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Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:35 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:35 pm
Do you believe what you write?
Honestly. I have no idea what you are asking me.

Describe how you experience belief.

From our conversation re: drawing distinctions juxtapose believing vs not-believing for me.

creativesoul
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Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:38 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:35 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:35 pm
Do you believe what you write?
Honestly. I do not know what you mean by that word...
Bullshit.

You either believe what you write or you don't. If you do, then you're an honest speaker. If you don't, then you're not.

TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:39 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:38 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:35 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:35 pm
Do you believe what you write?
Honestly. I do not know what you mean by that word...
Bullshit.

You either believe what you write or you don't. If you do, then you're an honest speaker. If you don't, then you're not.
What I write is me picturing the exact scenario (you telling me there is a spider) in my mind and simulating how it would play out in practice.
The observations I will make. The hypotheses I will test/questions I will ask. The conclusions I will draw.

I am narrating the "movie" that plays out in my head.

Is this what you call "belief" ?

creativesoul
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Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:43 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:39 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:38 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:35 pm

Honestly. I do not know what you mean by that word...
Bullshit.

You either believe what you write or you don't. If you do, then you're an honest speaker. If you don't, then you're not.
What I write is me picturing the exact scenario (you telling me there is a spider) in my mind and simulating how it would play out in practice.
The observations I will make. The hypotheses I will test. The conclusions I will draw.

I am narrating the "movie" that plays out in my head.

Is this what you call "belief" ?
Nah. Now you're into territory where the distinction between thought and belief is appropriate. At the rudimentary level, prior to becoming aware of one's own fallibility, there is no difference between the two... the only one is when one suspends judgment... when one is contemplating but uncertain whether or not they believe what they're contemplating...

TimeSeeker
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Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:44 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:43 pm
Nah. Now you're into territory where the distinction between thought and belief is appropriate. At the rudimentary level, prior to becoming aware of one's own fallibility, there is no difference between the two... the only one is when one suspends judgment... when one is contemplating but uncertain whether or not what they believe what they're contemplating...
You are still using the word "belief" to make arguments when you are yet to explain it.

I don't understand your argument because I don't understand how you use that word.

Give me a timeline. After the phrase "there is a spider on your shoulder" registers in your mind - what happens next? When does the belief/truth part come in? What happens right after you "believe" that there is a spider on your shoulder?

creativesoul
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Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:01 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:44 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:43 pm
Nah. Now you're into territory where the distinction between thought and belief is appropriate. At the rudimentary level, prior to becoming aware of one's own fallibility, there is no difference between the two... the only one is when one suspends judgment... when one is contemplating but uncertain whether or not what they believe what they're contemplating...
You are still using the word "belief" to make arguments when you are yet to explain it.

I don't understand your argument because I don't understand how you use that word.

Give me a timeline. After the phrase "there is a spider on your shoulder" registers in your mind - what happens next? When does the belief/truth part come in?
Not interested in yet another round of misdirection.

You either believe that there is a spider on your shoulder, or you don't, or you're uncertain whether or not there is. If you do, then you believe the statement is true. If you don't then you don't. If you're uncertain, then you are uncertain whether or not the statement is true. It's simple.

You obviously know what the statement means, for you've pictured it. You also know what it would take in order to be true(for you've pictured it). You may or may not believe it, depending upon whether or not you think/believe that there is a spider on your shoulder.

TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:03 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:01 pm
Not interested in yet another round of misdirection.

You either believe that there is a spider on your shoulder, or you don't, or you're uncertain whether or not there is. If you do, then you believe the statement is true. If you don't then you don't. If you're uncertain, then you are uncertain whether or not the statement is true. It's simple.

You obviously know what the statement means, for you've pictured it. You also know what it would take in order to be true. You may or may not believe it, depending upon whether or not you think/believe that there is a spider on your shoulder.
No matter how many times you repeat the word "believe" I am not going to understand what you are saying.

Much like the example with water in the fridge. Why would I care about my certainty at that exact moment? Taking certainty into account is only relevant when you make decisions.

I am not making any decisions.

I could shrug my shoulders and carry on with life - never validating if there is indeed a spider on my shoulder.
I could turn and look.

Furthermore the statement "uncertain or not the statement is true" is non-sensical in my mind.I consider myself a Bayesian. All predictions/expectations exist on a certainty continuum.
Last edited by TimeSeeker on Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

creativesoul
Posts: 771
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:06 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:39 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:38 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:35 pm

Honestly. I do not know what you mean by that word...
Bullshit.

You either believe what you write or you don't. If you do, then you're an honest speaker. If you don't, then you're not.
What I write is me picturing the exact scenario (you telling me there is a spider) in my mind and simulating how it would play out in practice.
The observations I will make. The hypotheses I will test/questions I will ask. The conclusions I will draw.

I am narrating the "movie" that plays out in my head.

Is this what you call "belief" ?
That's actually what I call thinking about thought/belief.
Last edited by creativesoul on Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:08 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:06 pm
That's actually what I call thinking about thought/belief.
Yes. You have asked a hypothetical. I have put myself in that position and played out the scenario in my head.

I have pointed out the key steps in the process which I recognise/would be aware of. I need you point out the part you recognise/call "belief".

If any.

creativesoul
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Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:13 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:08 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:06 pm
That's actually what I call thinking about thought/belief.
Yes. You have asked a hypothetical. I have put myself in that position and played out the scenario in my head.

I have pointed out the key steps in the process which I recognise/would be aware of. I need you point out the part you recognise/call "belief".

If any.
You believe that everything you've written is true; is the case at hand; is an account of the way things are; corresponds to fact/reality... etc.

TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:14 pm

The easiest way I know how to resolve this is with another hypothetical.

Suppose that i did believe - what do you expect to happen next?
Now suppose the same scenario plays out the next day. This time I didn't believe? What would happen that is different to yesterday?

TimeSeeker
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Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:15 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:13 pm
You believe that everything you've written is true; is the case at hand; is an account of the way things are; corresponds to fact/reality... etc.
Again...You need to describe "belief" with some other words. What happens when you "believe" is it a feeling? A decision? A recognition of an event taking place in your mind? Is it a priori? A posteriori?

No matter how many times you say it - I am hearing the same thing. A word I don't know how to parse.

Everything I've written is as I have imagined it given my knowledge of self.

To ask me is it true?; or Do you believe it? I will simply respond: how do I tell if I do or I don't believe it? How do I tell if it is or isn't true?

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