Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

What did you say? And what did you mean by it?

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creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:47 pm

Atla wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:36 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:27 pm
Atla wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:20 pm

Well I've seen people with no concept of truth who neither believe nor disbelieve what they say; such a thing makes no sense to them. But it's certainly a minority.
Example?
I think this is fairly common among people with Borderline Personality Disorder, Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and psychopathy. Some of them strongly believe what they say though (in that moment, it's not about truth).
Well, now you're talking about specific individual circumstances where people have lost the ability to discern what's true and what's not. That's about uncertainty. That comes from a habit of deliberately misrepresenting one's own belief over such a long period of time(for whatever reason) that the person no longer knows what's true and what's not because they can no longer remember what they believe and what they don't.

All of them know how to tell whether or not "The cup is on the table" is true.

TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:51 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:47 pm
All of them know how to tell whether or not "The cup is on the table" is true.
Trivialities. Things which can be asserted through direct observation are hardly ever the points of contention and debate.

It's those damn edge cases...

Atla
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by Atla » Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:52 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:47 pm
Atla wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:36 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:27 pm


Example?
I think this is fairly common among people with Borderline Personality Disorder, Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and psychopathy. Some of them strongly believe what they say though (in that moment, it's not about truth).
Well, now you're talking about specific individual circumstances where people have lost the ability to discern what's true and what's not. That's about uncertainty. That comes from a habit of deliberately misrepresenting one's own belief over such a long period of time(for whatever reason) that the person no longer knows what's true and what's not because they can no longer remember what they believe and what they don't.

All of them know how to tell whether or not "The cup is on the table" is true.
No, I mean that the idea that something can be true or false didn't make sense to them in the first place. They don't think like that, probably most of them can't think like that.

creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:54 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:40 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:27 pm
Example?
Example: the notion of belief is non-empirical and so I have no idea what it really means beyond interpreting the question as "what do you think?".

The theory goes as follows: if beliefs influence your actions (e.g there's a causal relationship) then you ought to be able to infer people's beliefs from their actions. Principle of super-position.

And so - if there is any significant difference between a theist-belief and an atheist-non-belief there ought to be some testable/falsifiable difference in behaviour.

Got anything? I don't. It's just a game of labelling your metaphysical concepts differently.
There can be no difference anywhere that doesn't make a difference elsewhere—no difference in abstract truth that doesn't express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and some-when.

--William James
The theory doesn't take all the relevant facts into consideration. The same behaviour can be indicative of more than one operative belief. The same belief can cause different actions. Behaviourism fails.

TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:56 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:54 pm
The theory doesn't take all the relevant facts into consideration. The same behaviour can be indicative of more than one operative belief. The same belief can cause different actions. Behaviourism fails.
Yes. The same belief can cause different actions. But when you LOSE a belief (e.g theism to atheism) some behaviours should cease.

And if no change in behavior can be observed then you are effectively admitting that beliefs are inconsequential.

Behaviorism is all we have! Science only does behaviorism.

creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:02 pm

Atla wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:52 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:47 pm
Atla wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:36 pm

I think this is fairly common among people with Borderline Personality Disorder, Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and psychopathy. Some of them strongly believe what they say though (in that moment, it's not about truth).
Well, now you're talking about specific individual circumstances where people have lost the ability to discern what's true and what's not. That's about uncertainty. That comes from a habit of deliberately misrepresenting one's own belief over such a long period of time(for whatever reason) that the person no longer knows what's true and what's not because they can no longer remember what they believe and what they don't.

All of them know how to tell whether or not "The cup is on the table" is true.
No, I mean that the idea that something can be true or false didn't make sense to them in the first place. They don't think like that, probably most of them can't think like that.
I think that these people exist only in your imagination. When they are thirsty and ask you for water, if you say "There's some in the fridge" and they go looking and there is none, they most certainly know that what you said was not true.

Language acquisition itself requires that one draw correlations between statements and the world and/or oneself.

If someone has lost the ability to know what's true and what's not, they are insane.

TimeSeeker
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Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:06 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:02 pm
I think that these people exist only in your imagination. When they are thirsty and ask you for water, if you say "There's some in the fridge" and they go looking and there is none, they most certainly know that what you said was not true.

Language acquisition itself requires that one draw correlations between statements and the world and/or oneself.

If someone has lost the ability to know what's true and what's not, they are insane.
What is the utility in labelling it "true" or "not true"? They expected water in the fridge. You expected water in the fridge. They were wrong. Your expectations were not met. You are still thirsty.

If your brain goes through a thought process "What you said is not true!" instead of "Well, I am still thirsty!" is the insane one...
Last edited by TimeSeeker on Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Atla
Posts: 2079
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:27 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by Atla » Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:06 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:02 pm
Atla wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:52 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:47 pm


Well, now you're talking about specific individual circumstances where people have lost the ability to discern what's true and what's not. That's about uncertainty. That comes from a habit of deliberately misrepresenting one's own belief over such a long period of time(for whatever reason) that the person no longer knows what's true and what's not because they can no longer remember what they believe and what they don't.

All of them know how to tell whether or not "The cup is on the table" is true.
No, I mean that the idea that something can be true or false didn't make sense to them in the first place. They don't think like that, probably most of them can't think like that.
I think that these people exist only in your imagination. When they are thirsty and ask you for water, if you say "There's some in the fridge" and they go looking and there is none, they most certainly know that what you said was not true.

Language acquisition itself requires that one draw correlations between statements and the world and/or oneself.

If someone has lost the ability to know what's true and what's not, they are insane.
That's a simple example with simple objects. They will understand that I lied to them/deceived them, but actually such an understanding doesn't require a conception of true/false. Have you really not known such people?

TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:09 pm

Atla wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:06 pm
That's a simple example with simple objects. They will understand that I lied to them/deceived them, but actually such an understanding doesn't require a conception of true/false. Have you really not known such people?
There are so many more explanations than lying/deception! Misunderstanding. Forgetfulness. Kid took the water out of the fridge without them knowing. You didn't look on the bottom shelf. To assume they lied/deceived you is about the worst conclusion you could jump to.

Hanlon's razor...

creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:14 pm

Yes. The reason that "There is water in the fridge" was said is not at issue. Everyone who knows what that means, also knows if it is true or not after looking.

TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:15 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:14 pm
Yes. The reason that "There is water in the fridge" was said is not at issue. Everyone who knows what that means, also knows if it is true or not after looking.
Does the word/phrase/notion of "truth" actually go through your head at the moment of realisation?

As in consciously recognizing that "There is water in the fridge" is NOT a true statement.

Like. I experience confusion, disappointment, initiative (to find water). But truth? I am thirsty dude! Philosophy is the last thing on my mind.
Last edited by TimeSeeker on Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.

creativesoul
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Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:17 pm

"Hey, there's a spider on your shoulder!"

Everyone who knows what that means will also know whether or not it is true.

If you want to say that this does not involve them having a conception of "truth", I wouldn't argue for truth is understood prior to conceptions of "truth".

creativesoul
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Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:19 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:15 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:14 pm
Yes. The reason that "There is water in the fridge" was said is not at issue. Everyone who knows what that means, also knows if it is true or not after looking.
Does the word/phrase/notion of "truth" actually go through your head at the moment of realisation?

As in consciously recognizing that "There is water in the fridge" is NOT a true statement.

Like. I experience confusion, disappointment, initiative (to find water). But truth? I am thirsty dude! Philosophy is the last thing on my mind.
Nah... I don't think understanding that the claim is true or not requires a conception of "truth". Truth is presupposed in all thought, belief, and statements thereof. The presupposition of correspondence is inherent to thought/belief formation.

TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:20 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:17 pm
"Hey, there's a spider on your shoulder!"

Everyone who knows what that means will also know whether or not it is true.

If you want to say that this does not involve them having a conception of "truth", I wouldn't argue for truth is understood prior to conceptions of "truth".
You have created an image of a spider on my shoulder in my mind. Maybe there isn't one. Maybe you are pranking me.

Your words have evoked an image of a spider on my shoulder in my mind.

And? Which is the truth/belief part there?
Last edited by TimeSeeker on Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Atla
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Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:27 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by Atla » Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:21 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:19 pm
Truth is presupposed in all thought, belief, and statements thereof. The presupposition of correspondence is inherent to thought/belief formation.
If you have a normally functioning neocortex

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