Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

What did you say? And what did you mean by it?

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creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:28 am

TimeSeeker wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:27 am
creativesoul wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:25 am
Some thought is existentially dependent upon language.
Some - yes. All no!
creativesoul wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:25 am
Pay attention will ya? I mean, fer fuck's sake I've tolerated all the rhetorical bullshit for long enough. Say something that makes sense.
Here is your falsifier.

Version 0: self
Version 1: self <- concept-for-self
Version 2: self <- concept-for-self <- language-for-self (I)

Where "<-" represents the existential dependence.

Computation occurs at Version 1.
Blather. There is no sense of self necessary for physiological sensory perception to work. See the fire example.

TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:29 am

creativesoul wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:27 am
Laughable. So, now we are to believe that the first meaning produced involved the letter "I"...

:roll:
The first meaning for consciousness was self-awareness. It didn't involve any letters.

creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:32 am

Now we are certainly in dire need of a criterion for consciousness such that when it is met consciousness is had.

Got one?

I personally find the term to be a catch-all for all sorts of different shit.

TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:33 am

creativesoul wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:28 am
Blather. There is no sense of self necessary for physiological sensory perception to work. See the fire example.
You mean a creature which feels pain like a worm?

A creature whose "mind" (neural system) we have managed to completely digitise? https://www.sciencealert.com/scientists ... connectome

That would make an interesting argument for your "whatever thought/belief" is made of ;)

http://openworm.org

TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:40 am

creativesoul wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:32 am
Now we are certainly in dire need of a criterion for consciousness such that when it is met consciousness is had.

Got one?
I don't have one ;)

And I am not sure if such a criterion is even possible. Minds are emergent properties. At some point AI will be smarter than us. Whether it will be "conscious" is a philosophical red herring.

TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:48 am

Well, what do you know - just stumbled upon something new: http://www.opensourcebrain.org

Digital models of organic neural network (brains!). And even a programming language to model such things: https://www.neuroml.org

This will make for a fun weekend project...

creativesoul
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Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:49 am

TimeSeeker wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:33 am
creativesoul wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:28 am
Blather. There is no sense of self necessary for physiological sensory perception to work. See the fire example.
You mean a creature which feels pain like a worm?

A creature whose "mind" (neural system) we have managed to completely digitise? https://www.sciencealert.com/scientists ... connectome

That would make an interesting argument for your "whatever thought/belief" is made of ;)
Worms are capable of drawing correlations between things that exist in their entirety prior to becoming a part of the correlation.

TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:54 am

creativesoul wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:49 am
Worms are capable of drawing correlations between things that exist in their entirety prior to becoming a part of the correlation.
So any system that can draw correlations seems to meet your criteria then?

The simplest such system is a one which can draw exactly 1 distinction. It can differentiate A from B This requires 1 bit of information. 1 input.

An amoeba is sufficient.
Plants can draw correlations. Sunflowers correlate light.
Even protein folding seems to meet your correlation criterion.
Basic chemical reactions are sufficient. Valence can be thought of as a primitive correlation mechanism.

Slowly heading for a truism :)

Actually. Quantum entanglement meets your criterion too. Two entangled particles' quantum states always correlate.

creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:17 am

:mrgreen:

TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:35 am

creativesoul wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:17 am
:mrgreen:
You could've just said "all experience is meaningful" - we would've agreed and moved on ;)

Belinda
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by Belinda » Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:10 pm

Language is one of several symbolic media of communication. It's impossible to think as humans think without the ability to symbolise categories(frames, models, heuristics).

creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:45 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:35 am
creativesoul wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:17 am
:mrgreen:
You could've just said "all experience is meaningful" - we would've agreed and moved on ;)
Why would I do that? It's much less fun, and you wouldn't be helping me to sharpen the position I argue for.

It's the content of correlation that matters. There has to be a line drawn somewhere, and if it is a naturalistic one we're not the one drawing it. Rather, we're the ones discovering and/or taking account of it.

Drawing correlations between different things requires the ability to directly perceive and distinguish between different things.

creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:50 pm

Belinda wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:10 pm
Language is one of several symbolic media of communication. It's impossible to think as humans think without the ability to symbolise categories(frames, models, heuristics).
Yes, as humans we think in quite complex ways. However, if all of these ways include drawing correlations between different things, and drawing correlations between different things does not require language but still counts as a rudimentary form of thinking, then we arrive at an outline that serves as a continuum of complexity with the simplest kinds of thought on the one end and the most complex on the other.

creativesoul
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Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:56 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:54 am
creativesoul wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:49 am
Worms are capable of drawing correlations between things that exist in their entirety prior to becoming a part of the correlation.
So any system that can draw correlations seems to meet your criteria then?
Well no. The justification for the notion came from our language use(all our notions of all the different mental ongoings, namely "thought" and "belief"). Part of what all those uses have in common is physiological sensory perception(which I usually leave out of the description for it becomes a bit cumbersome). This brings about the need to discern between stimulus/response and thought. The former does not require correlations be drawn.

creativesoul
Posts: 771
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:00 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:54 am
creativesoul wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:49 am
Worms are capable of drawing correlations between things that exist in their entirety prior to becoming a part of the correlation.
So any system that can draw correlations seems to meet your criteria then?

The simplest such system is a one which can draw exactly 1 distinction. It can differentiate A from B This requires 1 bit of information. 1 input.

An amoeba is sufficient.
Plants can draw correlations. Sunflowers correlate light.
Even protein folding seems to meet your correlation criterion.
Basic chemical reactions are sufficient. Valence can be thought of as a primitive correlation mechanism.

Slowly heading for a truism :)

Actually. Quantum entanglement meets your criterion too. Two entangled particles' quantum states always correlate.
You're conflating being in a causal relationship with having the ability to draw correlations.

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