Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

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creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:54 am

Thought is computation.


Either my ducks have computation or they do not have thought.

Belief is software.
I have no software, therefore I have no belief.

Knowledge is memory.
Some memory is false, therefore some knowledge is false.


Those are unacceptable logical consequences of the framework you've put forth. Two of the three are reductio...


Thought, belief, and knowledge are prior to language. That which is prior to language exists in it's entirety prior to our account of it. Thus, our accounts can be wrong. That which exists in it's entirety prior to language can neither consist of nor be existentially dependent upon language.

Software is existentially dependent upon language. Belief is not. Therefore software is not equivalent to belief.

Computation is something that is done with language, and as such it is existentially dependent upon language. Thought is not. Therefore, thought is not equivalent to computation.

TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:37 am

creativesoul wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:54 am
Computation is something that is done with language, and as such it is existentially dependent upon language. Thought is not. Therefore, thought is not equivalent to computation.
It seems to me that you are unaware of the history of computing then. 100 years ago "Computer" was a job title. It is something that HUMANS did.
Alan Turing merely formalised it by observing said Computers at work.

And so your conception of "computation" seems to be constrained to the digital form of modern computers, yet you fail to recognise that the first computers were Human wetware ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wetware_computer ). Computation is something that was originally done with thought, not language - it was only formalised in the language of Mathematics .;)

Since then - quantum physicists have reconised the computational nature of reality. And since we are all made of quantum particles - i guess we are all (at least theoretically) computations. In a mathematical sense of the word ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda_calculus ). How broad do you want to go ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computation
A computation can be seen as a purely physical phenomenon occurring inside a closed physical system called a computer. Examples of such physical systems include digital computers, mechanical computers, quantum computers, DNA computers, molecular computers, microfluidics-based computers, analog computers, or wetware computers. This point of view has been adopted by the physics of computation, a branch of theoretical physics, as well as the field of natural computing.

An even more radical point of view, pancomputationalism, is the postulate of digital physics that argues that the evolution of the universe is itself a computation.
Since all forms of human enquiry can be reduced down to a decision problem - a yes/no questions you land up squarely in the domain of complexity theory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALL_(complexity) and the first subclass RE (recursion): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RE_(complexity).

Which is basically the domain of - EVERYTHING! Recursion is computation and recursion is EVERYWHERE.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recursion

creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:55 am

Are you really attempting to claim that computation is not existentially dependent upon language?

creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:03 am

Computation is any type of calculation[1][2] that includes both arithmetical and non-arithmetical steps and follows a well-defined model, for example an algorithm.
For fuck's sake...

:roll:

creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:05 am

creativesoul wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:40 am
creativesoul wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:11 pm
The OP asks a question that you and I both agree is possible. A difference between our views is how it is possible to think without language. Yours seems to work from a semiotic framework, where what's signified is at first only known to the thinking/believing creature. It is only after that particular creature uses and/or employs a signifier of it's own invention(pace your earlier examples) and further explains to another that shared meaning exists. Since all language is dependent upon shared meaning but the initial invention/creation/usage of new signifiers does not require such a thing, but it does require thinking, you've concluded that it is possible to think without language. Here, I would describe that invention/creation of word and referent as an example of the initial attribution of meaning. Sometimes, this initial attribution of meaning is not possible without language. This would be all cases where the content of correlation included and/or was existentially dependent upon pre-existing shared meaning.

It seems, based upon this most recent discussion about existential dependency, that a remarkable difference between our views regards what exactly counts as being without language. On my view, that which exists without language is not existentially dependent upon language.
To continue...

Some cases of the initial attribution of meaning consist of a creature drawing a mental correlation between that which is existentially dependent upon language and something else. While these cases are prima facie examples of how not all meaning is shared, and perhaps how there can be cases of private meaning, they are not good examples of thinking without language for the content of the correlation includes language itself.

Einstein's notion of space-time.

If Einstein's first thinking of "space-time" counts - by some criterion - as an example of thinking without language, then that framework and/or conceptual scheme neglects to take all the relevant facts into account. Einstein's "space-time" consists of correlations drawn between pre-existing language concepts . Einstein's thought is existentially dependent upon language, despite the fact that the first time he drew the correlation(s) between the linguistic concept of space and the linguistic concept of time and invented "space-time" there was no shared meaning of "space-time". His thought is not existentially dependent upon the shared meaning of "space-time". However, it consists - in part - of that which is existentially dependent upon language, for it consists - in part - of language itself. Being existentially dependent upon the shared meaning of "space-time" is not the only way for Einstein's notion of "space-time" to be existentially dependent upon language.

It is clear that being a case of inventing novel language does not equate to being a case of thinking without language.
:mrgreen:

creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:07 am

Semiotics is the theory of the production and interpretation of meaning. It's basic principle is that meaning is made by the deployment of acts and objects which function as "signs" in relation to other signs.
Semiotics cannot take into account the way meaning is first produced by virtue of a creature drawing correlations between different things - including itself.

A creature can think/believe that touching fire causes pain without ever deploying an act or an object that functions as a sign in relation to other acts and objects. A creature can draw a correlation between it's own actions(touching fire) and what happens afterwards(feeling pain) and in doing so has formed meaningful thought/belief about touching fire. This creature thinks/believes that touching fire causes pain. That belief is true. That belief is well-grounded. That belief is meaningful. That belief presupposes the existence of it's own content. That belief correctly attributes causality. That belief influences subsequent behaviour. That belief is the basis of expectation.

The above takes account of everyday events. There is no language necessary in order for any of that to happen. It is notable that there are no signs functioning in relation to other signs. There is the formation of meaningful, well-grounded, and true thought/belief. Thus, it only follows that not all production of meaning is made by the deployment of acts and objects which function as "signs" in relation to other signs.

All attribution(production) of meaning consists of something to become sign/symbol, something to become significant/symbolized, and a creature capable of drawing correlations between different things. Some content of correlation is not signs functioning in relation to other signs.

TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:13 am

creativesoul wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:55 am
Are you really attempting to claim that computation is not existentially dependent upon language?
Yes. Because I compute with my thoughts not with my language. I calculate 2+2=4 without language.

TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:14 am

creativesoul wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:07 am
Semiotics is the theory of the production and interpretation of meaning. It's basic principle is that meaning is made by the deployment of acts and objects which function as "signs" in relation to other signs.
Semiotics cannot take into account the way meaning is first produced by virtue of a creature drawing correlations between different things - including itself.
Well. It can. The shortest sentence in the English language is this: I. The signifier "I" points to the signified - me. Self-correlation if you will.

And if the concept of "I" came before the language/word "I" - I guess you could say that self-awareness/self-reference (recursion) is existentially dependent on thought.

Self-reference is recursive. Recursion is computation.

creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:25 am

TimeSeeker wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:13 am
creativesoul wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:55 am
Are you really attempting to claim that computation is not existentially dependent upon language?
Yes. Because I compute with my thoughts not with my language. I calculate 2+2=4 without language.
Some thought is existentially dependent upon language. It does not follow that one can compute with thought that that thought is not existentially dependent upon language.

Pay attention will ya? I mean, fer fuck's sake I've tolerated all the rhetorical bullshit for long enough. Say something that makes sense.

TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:27 am

creativesoul wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:25 am
Some thought is existentially dependent upon language.
Some - yes. All no!
creativesoul wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:25 am
Pay attention will ya? I mean, fer fuck's sake I've tolerated all the rhetorical bullshit for long enough. Say something that makes sense.
Here is your falsifier.

Version 0: physical self
Version 1: physical self <- concept-for-self
Version 2: physical self <- concept-for-self <- language-for-self

Where "<-" represents the existential dependence and the semiotic mesh.

Computation occurs at Version 1.
Last edited by TimeSeeker on Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:27 am

TimeSeeker wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:14 am
creativesoul wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:07 am
Semiotics is the theory of the production and interpretation of meaning. It's basic principle is that meaning is made by the deployment of acts and objects which function as "signs" in relation to other signs.
Semiotics cannot take into account the way meaning is first produced by virtue of a creature drawing correlations between different things - including itself.
Well. It can. The shortest sentence in the English language is this: I. The signifier "I" points to the signified - me. Self-correlation if you will.

And if the concept of "I" came before the language/word "I" - I guess you could say that self-awareness/self-reference (recursion) is existentially dependent on thought.

Self-reference is recursive. Recursion is computation.
Laughable. So, now we are to believe that the first meaning produced involved the letter "I"...

:roll:

creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:28 am

TimeSeeker wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:27 am
creativesoul wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:25 am
Some thought is existentially dependent upon language.
Some - yes. All no!
creativesoul wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:25 am
Pay attention will ya? I mean, fer fuck's sake I've tolerated all the rhetorical bullshit for long enough. Say something that makes sense.
Here is your falsifier.

Version 0: self
Version 1: self <- concept-for-self
Version 2: self <- concept-for-self <- language-for-self (I)

Where "<-" represents the existential dependence.

Computation occurs at Version 1.
Blather. There is no sense of self necessary for physiological sensory perception to work. See the fire example.

TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:29 am

creativesoul wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:27 am
Laughable. So, now we are to believe that the first meaning produced involved the letter "I"...

:roll:
The first meaning for consciousness was self-awareness. It didn't involve any letters.

creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:32 am

Now we are certainly in dire need of a criterion for consciousness such that when it is met consciousness is had.

Got one?

I personally find the term to be a catch-all for all sorts of different shit.

TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:33 am

creativesoul wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:28 am
Blather. There is no sense of self necessary for physiological sensory perception to work. See the fire example.
You mean a creature which feels pain like a worm?

A creature whose "mind" (neural system) we have managed to completely digitise? https://www.sciencealert.com/scientists ... connectome

That would make an interesting argument for your "whatever thought/belief" is made of ;)

http://openworm.org

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