Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

What did you say? And what did you mean by it?

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TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:58 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:56 pm
Nothing you've claimed is a problem for anything I've argued. Do you not see that?
You have no premise - so you have no argument.

creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:00 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:58 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:56 pm
Nothing you've claimed is a problem for anything I've argued. Do you not see that?
You have no premise - so you have no argument.
Step up then! Do some philosophy. I've offered numerous arguments in favor of what I've been arguing. Address those. Rhetoric alone is inadequate. I can do that as well... Can you also provide argument or at least something more than gratuitous assertion as a counter?

TimeSeeker
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Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:01 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:00 pm
Step up then! Do some philosophy. I've offered numerous arguments in favor of what I've been arguing. Address those. Rhetoric alone is inadequate. I can do that as well... Can you also provide argument or at least something more than gratuitous assertion as a counter?
That's not how logical arguments work...

I am pointing the errors in your logic e.g the inability for you to draw the conclusions which you have drawn.I do not need to have a valid argument for your argument to suck.

creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:03 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:57 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:55 pm
I need not know what all language use means in order to know that it is all meaningful. To argue otherwise is untenable... as it requires omniscience.
But you do need to know what meaning IS for you to be able to assert that "all language is meaningful". Else it's a tautology.

Is Meoritic script language? Is it meaningful? It was meaningful.. no longer. It's still a language!

Meaning is not a necessary condition for "language", therefore not all language is meaningful.
It is a language because it was meaningful. All language is existentially dependent upon shared meaning.

creativesoul
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Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:03 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:01 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:00 pm
Step up then! Do some philosophy. I've offered numerous arguments in favor of what I've been arguing. Address those. Rhetoric alone is inadequate. I can do that as well... Can you also provide argument or at least something more than gratuitous assertion as a counter?
That's not how logical arguments work...

I am pointing the errors in your logic e.g the inability for you to draw the conclusions which you have drawn.I do not need to have a valid argument for your argument to suck.
Charming.

You do need to have a valid objection.

TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:06 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:03 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:01 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:00 pm
Step up then! Do some philosophy. I've offered numerous arguments in favor of what I've been arguing. Address those. Rhetoric alone is inadequate. I can do that as well... Can you also provide argument or at least something more than gratuitous assertion as a counter?
That's not how logical arguments work...

I am pointing the errors in your logic e.g the inability for you to draw the conclusions which you have drawn.I do not need to have a valid argument for your argument to suck.
Charming.

You do need to have a valid objection.
Correct. Your pre-suppositiong are trivially falsifiable as is your taxonomy.

creativesoul
Posts: 771
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:08 pm

More gratuitous assertion...

You'll have to do better than that.

creativesoul
Posts: 771
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:09 pm

It's clear that you do not understand how existential dependency works.

creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:11 pm

All meaning includes something to become sign/symbol, something to become significant/symbolized, and a creature capable of connecting the two.

That is a universal claim. It is true of all particulars. All it takes to negate it is one example to the contrary.

Got one?

:lol:

TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:13 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:11 pm
All meaning includes something to become sign/symbol, something to become significant/symbolized, and a creature capable of connecting the two.

That is a universal claim. It is true of all particulars. All it takes to negate it is one example to the contrary.

Got one?

:lol:
Yes. Computers are not creatures. Based on symbols (represented as bits - which are physical things) computers process information, make decisions and have a causal effect on reality. That is significant.

Furthermore. Experiences (like being being driven from A to B by a robot!) are meaningful to ME without being symbolised in any way. It's called utility.

creativesoul
Posts: 771
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:18 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:13 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:11 pm
All meaning includes something to become sign/symbol, something to become significant/symbolized, and a creature capable of connecting the two.

That is a universal claim. It is true of all particulars. All it takes to negate it is one example to the contrary.

Got one?

:lol:
Yes. Computers are not creatures. Based on symbols computers have causal effect on reality. That is significant.
Odd. You answer "yes" to the question of whether or not you have an example of meaning without something to become sign/symbol, something to become significant/symbolized, and a creature capable of connecting the two, and you've offered none.

Computers are not creatures. Therefore nothing is meaningful to the computer. It is meaningful to you and me. There's no exception here.

TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:20 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:18 pm
Odd. You answer "yes" to the question of whether or not you have an example of meaning without something to become sign/symbol, something to become significant/symbolized, and a creature capable of connecting the two, and you've offered none.

Computers are not creatures. Therefore nothing is meaningful to the computer. It is meaningful to you and me. There's no exception here.
The EXPERIENCE of being driven by a robot from A to B is not meaningful to you? It sure is meaningful to me. Without it becoming a sing/symbol.

It's bloody useful!

creativesoul
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Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:21 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:13 pm
Furthermore. Experiences (like being being driven from A to B by a robot!) are meaningful to ME without being symbolised in any way. It's called utility.
Drawing correlations between being driven by a robot and other things...

TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:23 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:21 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:13 pm
Furthermore. Experiences (like being being driven from A to B by a robot!) are meaningful to ME without being symbolised in any way. It's called utility.
Drawing correlations between being driven by a robot and other things...
Yes. It's meaningful. And it's not language. It's utility.

creativesoul
Posts: 771
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:26 pm

I've set out a criterion for what all meaning is existentially dependent upon. You've satisfied that criterion with each example.

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