Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

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surreptitious57
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by surreptitious57 » Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:39 am

TimeSeeker wrote:
For all other things that they may share with us experience may or may not be one of those things and so automatons may never actually
be able to conquer the implicit / explicit distinction . Until they map out a model of how human brains work ...
There will probably be an interim period between humans and machines where the latter acquire understanding of how
the former think with amalgamation in the form of androids or cyborgs before the eventual transition to total machine

Our lives are already dominated by machines but because they are passive and incapable of passing a Turing test we do not notice
But when they become self sufficient and can think and act and replicate for themselves and no longer need us then we will notice

Could you tell the difference between a synthetic human form machine that was Turing capable and a human being ? No me neither
But this is academic as we will be long dead before it eventually happens but some future generation will have to confront it though

TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:40 am

I am far more scared of a machine that fails the Turing test intentionally than one that passes it...

Either way - the Turing test is the least of our concern. The fact that we are gullible and susceptible to emotional manipulation is another risk.

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/FmxhoWx ... t-and-lost

surreptitious57
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by surreptitious57 » Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:58 am

TimeSeeker wrote:
I am far more scared of a machine that fails the Turing test intentionally than one that passes ...

Either way - the Turing test is the least of our concern . The fact that we are gullible and susceptible to emotional manipulation
We have been gullible and susceptible to emotional manipulation ever since we evolved but have
not till very recently had to worry about something else replacing us at the top of the food chain

TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:25 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:58 am
We have been gullible and susceptible to emotional manipulation ever since we evolved but have
not till very recently had to worry about something else replacing us at the top of the food chain
One could argue this hasn't been true at least since the 15th century when Machiavellianism became a popular term and tactic.

surreptitious57
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by surreptitious57 » Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:06 am

TimeSeeker wrote:
One could argue this hasnt been true at least since the 15th century when Machiavellianism became a popular term and tactic
Machiavellianism only applies to those who are in positions of power and influence not the general population at large
Also the sheer diversity of opinion made possible by the internet makes gullibility and manipulation even more likely

TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:37 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:06 am
Machiavellianism only applies to those who are in positions of power and influence not the general population at large
It doesn't. One can practice Machiavellianism within any circle of influence. Your family, friends, community, business partners. Any human interaction is par for the course. One can work their way to greater positions of influence over time - by using Machiavellianism.

It's a strategy. It applies wherever anybody chooses to apply it.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:06 am
Also the sheer diversity of opinion made possible by the internet makes gullibility and manipulation even more likely
DIsinformation warfare is a Machiavellian approach too. The Russians perfected it. The Internet amplified it.

creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:17 am

TimeSeeker wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:08 am
creativesoul wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:10 pm
To talk of "sign" or "symbol" as though the words themselves can be meaningful without their significant other is to speak nonsensically. What makes a sign what it is is the fact that it is a proxy for something that it is not. The same holds good for a symbol. The same holds good for a name. The same holds good for a definition. The same holds good for any and all abstraction by proxy.
That words/signs/symbols are meaningless is true. It is also a red herring.
Oh, come on. Do you really believe that?

:?

What I wrote is not irrelevant. Red Herrings are. What you've written directly above is not true, and that, my friend, is not up to you. Your belief is unnecessary.

For the readers' sake alone...

Saying that words/signs/symbols are meaningless is unnecessarily confusing speech based upon gross misconceptions of thought/belief and meaning. While it is perfectly acceptable in everyday parlance to say that a word is not meaningful, in and of itself... the reason that it's ok to say that is because no thing is. I would only point out that no thing is a word/sign/symbol in and of itself either.

All meaning is attributed. All attribution of meaning is existentially dependent upon something to become sign/symbol, something to become significant/symbolic, and a creature capable of drawing correlation(s) between different things. The difference between words/signs/symbols and meaningless marks/things is precisely the fact that they are and/or have been a part of a correlation. Being a part of a correlation is precisely what makes anything and everything meaningful...

There are no exceptions.

What I wrote is not irrelevant. Red Herrings are.

creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:36 am

TimeSeeker wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:08 am

How words are INTERPRETED and who they are interpreted BY matters. Natural languages are open to interpretation. Programming languages are not. They are deterministic and they contain no ambiguity/contradictions/grammatical errors.
Programming languages use rigid designators. So what? Latin isn't a programming language, and it's not open for interpretation any more or less than binary code. All language can be interpreted. It is all 'open for interpretation'...

Surely you're not claiming that computer language(s) do not use signs/symbols that stand in for what they are not themselves? Surely you would not deny the fact that all the signs and symbols used to write computer language and/or code stand for something else... say... a command to perform a specific operation?

8)


TimeSeeker wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:08 am
...And so the meaning of a symbol (while still open to interpretation by observers) is immaterial. The computer/robot/automaton takes action/makes decisions/has measurable effect on reality based on language.

Agency and real-world consequences MAKES it significant (meaningful?). Airplane autopilots. Factory robots. Artificial Intelligence. 21st century society is heavily dependent on automation therefore programming languages are significant without a "significant other". This very forum works because language!
:mrgreen:

And you actually had the gall to accuse me of irrelevancy and Red Herring...

Pots and Kettles.

creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:53 am

Novelty's a bitch... and not at all impossible using pre-existing language. Why? Because thought/belief consists of meaningful correlations between different things, and an already existing language can be used to draw novel correlations...

All paradigm shift includes exactly that.

creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:54 am

:mrgreen:
Last edited by creativesoul on Sun Nov 11, 2018 3:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:56 am

The reason why AI will never happen is because machines cannot draw original/novel/new correlations...
Last edited by creativesoul on Sun Nov 11, 2018 3:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:08 am

TimeSeeker wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:08 am

Whether "the symbols of programming languages are themselves meaningful" becomes just another topic of philosophical masturbation.

We simply fail to distinguish the various use-cases: language for reasoning/decision-making (computation) versus language for communication (communication protocol). Language for self-expression (poetry)

Language is a tool. It serves a purpose in a particular context.
No argument with the last two claims... generally speaking, that is.

Distinguishing between the various use cases is done, so I've no idea what you're trying to say here. You just did it. Besides...

It's careful contemplation and consideration of the content of correlation that matters most. It is key and requires an adequate framework.

All the historical confusions stemming from objective/subjective, internal/external, map/territory, and all the other miserably failed attempts at distinguishing between things that are existentially dependent upon language and things that are not are dissolved by virtue of getting thought/belief right. Unfortunately, it seems that you've followed some of the same academic paths that lead to a gross misunderstanding of thought/belief.

TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:30 am

creativesoul wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:36 am
Programming languages use rigid designators. So what?
So what? It means their grammar and semantics are complete. That's like a BIG thing for a logic!
creativesoul wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:36 am
Latin isn't a programming language, and it's not open for interpretation any more or less than binary code. All language can be interpreted. It is all 'open for interpretation'...
Incorrect. Interpretation is a process. Fundamentally - it's disambiguation of meaning.

The difference between programming languages and natural languages is that programming languages can INTERPRET THEMSELEVES.
That is - I can write an interpreter for language X in language Y. And once I have an interpreter for language X I can write an interpreter for language X in language X. Recursion!

Go ahead and define the rules of interpretation for Latin in Latin. I'll wait.

creativesoul wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:36 am
Surely you're not claiming that computer language(s) do not use signs/symbols that stand in for what they are not themselves? Surely you would not deny the fact that all the signs and symbols used to write computer language and/or code stand for something else... say... a command to perform a specific operation?

8)
That's a philosophical red herring. It doesn't matter what the symbol "stands for". What matters is the consequence of the symbol's interpretation.

That you've decided to call a pizza "pizza" or "smulregop" doesn't matter. I want smulregop for lunch!

The consequence of wanting smulregop for lunch is that I get in my car and go to the smulregop restaurant.

creativesoul wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:36 am
And you actually had the gall to accuse me of irrelevancy and Red Herring...

Pots and Kettles.
Science not philosophy. Consequential differences, not equivocation.

creativesoul
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Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:34 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:30 am
creativesoul wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:36 am
Programming languages use rigid designators. So what?
So what? It means their grammar and semantics are complete. That's like a BIG thing for a logic!
So what? The signs/symbols are meaningless without their significant other(what is significant/symbolized).


TimeSeeker wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:30 am
creativesoul wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:36 am
Latin isn't a programming language, and it's not open for interpretation any more or less than binary code. All language can be interpreted. It is all 'open for interpretation'...
Incorrect. Interpretation is a process. Fundamentally - it's disambiguation of meaning.

The difference between programming languages and natural languages is that programming languages can INTERPRET THEMSELEVES.
That is - I can write an interpreter for language X in language Y. And once I have an interpreter for language X I can write an interpreter for language X in language X. Recursion!
All interpretation is attributing meaning to that which is already meaningful. You are not a programming language. Nothing you've said here supports the nonsensical notion that words/signs/symbols are not meaningful.

TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:58 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:34 pm
So what? The signs/symbols are meaningless without their significant other(what is significant/symbolized).
You seem to be concerned only with the descriptive use of language. That's not an exhaustive list of language's uses!
creativesoul wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:34 pm
All interpretation is attributing meaning to that which is already meaningful.
Again. Descriptive use of language. All that is meaningful needs not be described in language. And yet we do. Why?
creativesoul wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:34 pm
Nothing you've said here supports the nonsensical notion that words/signs/symbols are not meaningful.
I see. So what does 'grobmunf' mean?

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