Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

What did you say? And what did you mean by it?

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TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:35 pm

Averroes wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:43 am
Contradictions occur by upholding contradictory statements, whether these statements are precise or not.
This is an interesting claim.

Could you demonstrate perhaps? Please go ahead and type two contradictory statements in any programming language of your choosing.

You are welcome to use this platform: https://repl.it/languages

Once you handle the above challenge then we can focus on this lie:
Averroes wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:34 pm
Against! Because now, the expression “thoughts which cannot be expressed in language,” is referring to thoughts that cannot be expressed in language!! And we have a contradiction!
How can that be a contradiction if contradictions don't exist? I thought it's a law?
Now you are asserting a contradiction? So contradictions DO exist?

What kind of a 'law' is this?!?

I told you all of classical logic is in my trash can - you don't believe me.
Last edited by TimeSeeker on Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Averroes
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by Averroes » Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:44 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:35 pm
Once you handle the above challenge then we can focus on this lie:
Averroes wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:34 pm
Against! Because now, the expression “thoughts which cannot be expressed in language,” is referring to thoughts that cannot be expressed in language!! And we have a contradiction!
No. We started here, and we will have to end it here. Don't try to run away again from the "goal post." Either you give up or you prove what you promised, there is no escape.

TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:45 pm

Averroes wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:44 pm
No. We started here, and we will have to end it here. Don't try to run away again from the "goal post." Either you give up or you prove what you promised, there is no escape.
But you said "any language". Now you INSIST on doing it on this platform? Why?

Lets do it in Python.

And in Python there are no contradictions. So I reject the LNC until you can demonstrate or provide some evidence that contradictions exist.

Averroes
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by Averroes » Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:48 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:35 pm

How can that be a contradiction if contradictions don't exist? I thought it's a law?
Now you are asserting a contradiction? So contradictions DO exist?

What kind of a 'law' is this?!?

I told you all of classical logic is in my trash can - you don't believe me.
You have chosen intuitionistic logic, I am fine with that. But in intuitionistic logic, there is still the law of non-contradiction. If you cannot provide a proof by upholding the law of non-contradiction, then you have not fulfilled your "promise" (as you say). Take your time. I am not in a hurry.

TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:49 pm

Averroes wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:48 pm
There is still the law of non-contradiction.
Sorry. That is an appeal to authority. Such a 'law' does not exist.

Averroes
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by Averroes » Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:51 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:49 pm
Averroes wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:48 pm
There is still the law of non-contradiction.
Sorry. That is an appeal to authority. Such a 'law' does not exist.
Are you giving up then?

TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:52 pm

Averroes wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:51 pm
Are you giving up then?
On?

Averroes
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by Averroes » Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:59 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:52 pm
Averroes wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:51 pm
Are you giving up then?
On?
On your promise of proving that there are thoughts which cannot be expressed in language in intuitionistic logic? You said this previously:
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:50 pm
You have set yourself up for disappointment. You have contrived an impossible challenge. A game that cannot be won given the rules you seem to be playing by. You are asking me to prove a negative while at the same time it appears you are holding me accountable to the laws of Aristotelian/Classical logic.

The only way I know how to prove a negative is to abandon Aristotelian logic and embrace constructive/intuitionistic logic. Which necessarily means abandoning the laws of excluded middle AND the laws of non-contradiction!

It is only in that framework where proof-by-contradiction becomes a viable strategy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_contradiction

So, lets embrace constructive logic and ASSUME that all thought can be expressed in language and see what absurdities/paradoxes this leads to.

Of course, now the game is rigged in my favour because I KNOW you have no empirical/ontological/scientific grounding for what a 'thought' is and isn't ;)

TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:03 pm

Averroes wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:59 pm
On your promise of proving that there are thoughts which cannot be expressed in language in intuitionistic logic? You said this previously:
But I did prove it? Except you rejected my proof by claiming it's a contradiction.

Since I reject the LNC and you don't and since you believe that all thought can be expressed in language then you should have no problem expressing the thought process (e.g ALGORITHM) by which you ASSERTED that I have contradicted myself.

This is precisely what software compilers do - syntax/semantic verification.

From where I am standing the statement was perfectly coherent. Maybe you are missing information? There's a fine line between abductive and deductive reasoning you know...

Averroes
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by Averroes » Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:42 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:03 pm
Averroes wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:59 pm
On your promise of proving that there are thoughts which cannot be expressed in language in intuitionistic logic? You said this previously:
But I did prove it? Except you rejected my proof by claiming it's a contradiction.
So, that's you final say on the matter?

TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:48 pm

Averroes wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:42 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:03 pm
Averroes wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:59 pm
On your promise of proving that there are thoughts which cannot be expressed in language in intuitionistic logic? You said this previously:
But I did prove it? Except you rejected my proof by claiming it's a contradiction.
So, that's you final say on the matter?
No? You left out the three paragraphs that followed.

Averroes
Posts: 267
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:48 pm

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by Averroes » Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:52 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:03 pm
Averroes wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:59 pm
On your promise of proving that there are thoughts which cannot be expressed in language in intuitionistic logic? You said this previously:
But I did prove it? Except you rejected my proof by claiming it's a contradiction.

Since I reject the LNC and you don't and since you believe that all thought can be expressed in language then you should have no problem expressing the thought process (e.g ALGORITHM) by which you ASSERTED that I have contradicted myself.

This is precisely what software compilers do - syntax/semantic verification.

From where I am standing the statement was perfectly coherent. Maybe you are missing information? There's a fine line between abductive and deductive reasoning you know...
So, that would be your final say then?

TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:00 pm

Averroes wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:52 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:03 pm
Averroes wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:59 pm
On your promise of proving that there are thoughts which cannot be expressed in language in intuitionistic logic? You said this previously:
But I did prove it? Except you rejected my proof by claiming it's a contradiction.

Since I reject the LNC and you don't and since you believe that all thought can be expressed in language then you should have no problem expressing the thought process (e.g ALGORITHM) by which you ASSERTED that I have contradicted myself.

This is precisely what software compilers do - syntax/semantic verification.

From where I am standing the statement was perfectly coherent. Maybe you are missing information? There's a fine line between abductive and deductive reasoning you know...
So, that would be your final say then?
It isn’t. I am awaiting on your feedback having successfully shifted the burden of proof.

Show me a contradiction in the language of Python.

Averroes
Posts: 267
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:48 pm

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by Averroes » Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:03 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:00 pm
Averroes wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:52 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:03 pm

But I did prove it? Except you rejected my proof by claiming it's a contradiction.

Since I reject the LNC and you don't and since you believe that all thought can be expressed in language then you should have no problem expressing the thought process (e.g ALGORITHM) by which you ASSERTED that I have contradicted myself.

This is precisely what software compilers do - syntax/semantic verification.

From where I am standing the statement was perfectly coherent. Maybe you are missing information? There's a fine line between abductive and deductive reasoning you know...
So, that would be your final say then?
It isn’t. I am awaiting on your feedback having successfully shifted the burden of proof.
OKAY! My feedback is: get back to work and prove what you had said you would prove by upholding the law of non-contradiction as is the case in intuitionistic logic. I am still waiting.
Last edited by Averroes on Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:05 pm

Averroes wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:03 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:00 pm
Averroes wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:52 pm


So, that would be your final say then?
It isn’t. I am awaiting on your feedback having successfully shifted the burden of proof.
OKAY! My feedback is: get back to work and prove what you had said you would prove by unholding the law of non-contradiction as is the case in intuitionistic logic. I am still waiting.
By the Curry-Howard isomorphism Python is intuinistic logic. It is Lambda calculus.

Show me a contradiction.

Otherwise your rejection of my proof is baseless.

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