How does anything you've written here support the above claim?...if everything that you want to say can be expressed - none of these ideas are yours.
Is It Possible To Think Without Language?
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?
I'm speaking as a competent English user...
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?
And I am speaking as a competent epistemologist, logician, realist. Or in general - somebody who understands how thinking and communication works. And how language can come BEFORE or AFTER thought.
I have no idea how you interpret the evidence against my claim.creativesoul wrote: ↑Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:42 am How does anything you've written here support the above claim?
Last edited by TimeSeeker on Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:45 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?
I've no issue with anything here... At first blush, it is agreeable with my own position.TimeSeeker wrote: ↑Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:35 am
From what vantage point are you making the above comment? An observer to a conversation or from the shoes of the person not finding the words?
I am simply asking you to recognize semiotics! The distinction between signifier and signified.
And then I am asking you to recognize the order in which those things appear in your mind.
You have the signifier "grobmunf" in your head - an empty label which you learned from me. You have no signified for it. You don't know what it means!
I had a signified BEFORE I had a signifier. I INVENTED the signifier 'grobmunf'.
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?
OK, so if you agree and all language is meaningful, then what is the meaning of "grobmunf" ?creativesoul wrote: ↑Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:44 am I've no issue with anything here... At first blush, it is agreeable with my own position.
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?
I've no issue here either. Depends upon the complexity of the thought. We'll see how well you understand how thinking works...TimeSeeker wrote: ↑Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:43 amAnd I am speaking as a competent epistemologist, logician, realist. Or in general - somebody who understands how thinking and communication works. And how language can come BEFORE or AFTER thought.
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?
I have no idea. That does not mean that it is not meaningful.TimeSeeker wrote: ↑Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:45 amOK, so if you agree and all language is meaningful, then what is the meaning of "grobmunf" ?creativesoul wrote: ↑Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:44 am I've no issue with anything here... At first blush, it is agreeable with my own position.
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?
OK, so what would make the word "grobmunf" meaningful? What makes it language?creativesoul wrote: ↑Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:49 am I have no idea. That does not mean that it is not meaningful.
My intent for it to mean something; or OUR consensus on its meaning?
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?
How does any of this support the above claim?...if everything that you want to say can be expressed - none of these ideas are yours.
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?
Well. I am trying to establish your criteria for what is and is not "expression".creativesoul wrote: ↑Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:52 amHow does any of this support the above claim?...if everything that you want to say can be expressed - none of these ideas are yours.
I have expressed the word "grobmunf". Nobody understands it - but I have expressed it.
So far by your criteria. It is language. It is meaningful. And I have expressed it.
The fact that I am the only one who can understand the meaning/expression doesn't seem to bother you at all? It's a very solopsistic world-view...
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?
What makes "X" meaningful. What makes "X" language? Let X be "grobmunf".TimeSeeker wrote: ↑Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:50 amOK, so what would make the word "grobmunf" meaningful? What makes it language?creativesoul wrote: ↑Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:49 am I have no idea. That does not mean that it is not meaningful.
My intent for it to mean something; or OUR consensus on its meaning?
That's two questions, each with a different answer. The criterion for being meaningful is different than the criterion for being language.
What's your point here?
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?
My point is that where you have drawn impermeable lines between the criteria for meaning and language I have not.creativesoul wrote: ↑Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:56 am What makes "X" meaningful. What makes "X" language? Let X be "grobmunf".
That's two questions, each with a different answer. The criterion for being meaningful is different than the criterion for being language.
What's your point here?
It needs to satisfy ALL those criteria! It needs to be communicable for it to be meaningful, for it to be language for it to be expression.
These concepts do not exist in a vacuum. If you are the only one who can extract meaning - then what's the point?
Last edited by TimeSeeker on Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?
Don't jump the gun...TimeSeeker wrote: ↑Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:54 amWell. I am trying to establish your criteria for what is and is not "expression".creativesoul wrote: ↑Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:52 amHow does any of this support the above claim?...if everything that you want to say can be expressed - none of these ideas are yours.
I have expressed the word "grobmunf". Nobody understands it - but I have expressed it.
So far by your criteria. It is language. It is meaningful. And I have expressed it.
The fact that I am the only one who can understand the meaning/expression doesn't seem to bother you at all? It's a very solopsistic world-view...
Go back and read what I wrote. All language is meaningful. Language requires shared meaning. Thought does not. Rather, it requires meaning.
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?
That is precisely what I am doing.
OK, so if you agree and all language is meaningful, then what is the meaning of "grobmunf" ?creativesoul wrote: ↑Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:59 am All language is meaningful. Language requires shared meaning. Thought does not. Rather, it requires meaning.
So you and I have no shared meaning for 'grobmunf'. Is it language or not?creativesoul wrote: ↑Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:49 am I have no idea. That does not mean that it is not meaningful.
Last edited by TimeSeeker on Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?
Are you saying that there is no difference between what meaning takes and what language takes?TimeSeeker wrote: ↑Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:58 amMy point is that where you have drawn impermeable lines between the criteria for meaning and language I have not.creativesoul wrote: ↑Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:56 am What makes "X" meaningful. What makes "X" language? Let X be "grobmunf".
That's two questions, each with a different answer. The criterion for being meaningful is different than the criterion for being language.
What's your point here?
It needs to satisfy ALL those criteria! It needs to be communicable for it to be meaningful, for it to be language for it to be expression...
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?
I am saying that language (words) are meaningles in a vacuum. Words on paper contain no meaning!creativesoul wrote: ↑Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:04 amAre you saying that there is no difference between what meaning takes and what language takes?TimeSeeker wrote: ↑Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:58 amMy point is that where you have drawn impermeable lines between the criteria for meaning and language I have not.creativesoul wrote: ↑Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:56 am What makes "X" meaningful. What makes "X" language? Let X be "grobmunf".
That's two questions, each with a different answer. The criterion for being meaningful is different than the criterion for being language.
What's your point here?
It needs to satisfy ALL those criteria! It needs to be communicable for it to be meaningful, for it to be language for it to be expression...
Words can have intended meaning (from perspective of the person uttering them).
Words can have interpreted meaning (from the perspective of the person interpreting them).
Meaning is not IN the word.
Last edited by TimeSeeker on Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:06 am, edited 1 time in total.