The thoughts of Nisargadatta Maharaj

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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surreptitious57
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Re: The thoughts of Nisargadatta Maharaj

Post by surreptitious57 » Sun Oct 28, 2018 9:35 am

Dontaskme wrote:
real intelligence which operates beneath surface mind at a much much deeper level
Could you explain this in more detail and how you came to access and understand it ?

Walker
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Re: The thoughts of Nisargadatta Maharaj

Post by Walker » Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:18 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 4:26 am
Walker wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 11:19 am
So, what’s your take on "saints licking lepers" in terms of intent, cause and effect, state of mind, etc?
If that is addressed to me, I thought I have given my point of view on the above in another post.

Do you think those saints who licked lepers has the power of a God in them to kill the leprosy germs?

Instead of speculating, it would be best to put such things and happenings to the test, i.e. scientific tests.
If it is really a hypothesis that is possible, I am sure scientists would be very interested to find the reasons and cause & effect so that they can come up with something to prevent leprosy.
If you did I didn't see it.

It’s a topic for anyone, and in this thread, Philosophy of Mind, the focus would naturally be on the state of mind that would cause such an action.

What are these licking saints thinking, if they’re thinking at all?

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Dontaskme
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Re: The thoughts of Nisargadatta Maharaj

Post by Dontaskme » Sun Oct 28, 2018 1:09 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 9:35 am
Dontaskme wrote:
real intelligence which operates beneath surface mind at a much much deeper level
Could you explain this in more detail and how you came to access and understand it ?
There is an understanding in me which was brought about by drawing my attention inward to the actual seer, and it was seen that something beyond my egoic separate empirical (I) was living as and through me, and that inner looking saw that intelligence is omnipresent in life and without the intelligence in life no living being could be intelligent. I am aware that intelligent life is living me and not that I am intelligence living this life.

It's not man that makes his intelligence, it's intelligence that makes man. Intelligence made the mind of man.
But then what man does is he says I am Intelligent, and it's then considered as the property of the human mind. Thus attributed to an individual while forgetting that the individual is in life in every moment and not separate from life. Intelligence is manifesting in the immediate moment, it's not the mind of man that manifests this immediate moment, intelligence is manifesting this moment including the intelligence of man. This was a simple realisation for me as part of my awakening from the dream of separation.

The intelligence in life manifests everything that is known as thoughts in the human mind in any moment. This signifies that the intelligence in life makes everything happen in life and it is not the mind that makes everything happen in life in any moment.

There is no judgment in the intelligence of life. There is judgment in the human mind. There is no preference in the intelligence of life. There is preference in the human mind. There is no beginning and end in the intelligence of life. There are no thoughts or actions in the intelligence of life. There are both thoughts and actions in the minds of human albeit as illusory appearances within the intelligence that is life.

If someone says to you that you lack intelligence or you are stupid this is all the ego as it prides itself of ownership of intelligence, all illusory of course. Real intelligence is that which made a universe from nothing and is brainless.

.

surreptitious57
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Re: The thoughts of Nisargadatta Maharaj

Post by surreptitious57 » Sun Oct 28, 2018 3:52 pm

There is logical intelligence and emotional intelligence. What you are referencing about yourself is closer to
the latter even if this is not what it is specifically known as. And so it is therefore wrong to limit intelligence
to just logical intelligence or to imply it is superior to emotional intelligence as it is not always necessarily so

Veritas Aequitas
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Re: The thoughts of Nisargadatta Maharaj

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:31 am

Walker wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:18 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 4:26 am
Walker wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 11:19 am
So, what’s your take on "saints licking lepers" in terms of intent, cause and effect, state of mind, etc?
If that is addressed to me, I thought I have given my point of view on the above in another post.

Do you think those saints who licked lepers has the power of a God in them to kill the leprosy germs?

Instead of speculating, it would be best to put such things and happenings to the test, i.e. scientific tests.
If it is really a hypothesis that is possible, I am sure scientists would be very interested to find the reasons and cause & effect so that they can come up with something to prevent leprosy.
If you did I didn't see it.

It’s a topic for anyone, and in this thread, Philosophy of Mind, the focus would naturally be on the state of mind that would cause such an action.

What are these licking saints thinking, if they’re thinking at all?
Unless these linking saints express their thought we will never know what they are thinking.
However we can infer the reasons from their actions and our knowledge database.

Many god-men or god-women are claimed to have seemingly performed miracles in the ancient and in the modern era. One example is Sai Baba.
Sai Baba's purported materialisations of vibhuti (holy ash) and other small objects such as rings, necklaces, and watches, were a source of both fame and controversy.[6] Some have analyzed them as being mere sleight of hand; while his devotees considered them signs of his divinity.[7][8][9] Innumerable reports of miraculous healings, resurrection, clairvoyance, bilocation, and alleged omnipotence and omniscience have been attributed to Sai Baba by both devotees and non-devotees.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sathya_Sai_Baba
The current 'revered saint' leper licker is Amma.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mata_Amri ... l_Tredwell
There are many 'miraculous claims' attributed to her.

Note there are many others who are claimed to have performed miracles.
However they are not willing to subject their performance to scientific tests.

I am not in a position nor in interested in speculating on what is going on.

One point is MANY people easily succumbed what they see as 'miracle' and take it as the truth and surrender their will to those who exploited such things.

As I had stated above, the best position for these god-person is to allow their performance to be subjected to at least scientific tests.
As for observers of what is seeming 'miracle' they should always suspend their judgment until 'reasonable' proofs are available instead of surrendering their will and assets to third parties.
Last edited by Veritas Aequitas on Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

Veritas Aequitas
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Re: The thoughts of Nisargadatta Maharaj

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:43 am

Dontaskme wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 1:09 pm
surreptitious57 wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 9:35 am
Dontaskme wrote:
real intelligence which operates beneath surface mind at a much much deeper level
Could you explain this in more detail and how you came to access and understand it ?
There is an understanding in me which was brought about by drawing my attention inward to the actual seer, and it was seen that something beyond my egoic separate empirical (I) was living as and through me, and that inner looking saw that intelligence is omnipresent in life and without the intelligence in life no living being could be intelligent. I am aware that intelligent life is living me and not that I am intelligence living this life.

It's not man that makes his intelligence, it's intelligence that makes man. Intelligence made the mind of man.
But then what man does is he says I am Intelligent, and it's then considered as the property of the human mind. Thus attributed to an individual while forgetting that the individual is in life in every moment and not separate from life. Intelligence is manifesting in the immediate moment, it's not the mind of man that manifests this immediate moment, intelligence is manifesting this moment including the intelligence of man. This was a simple realisation for me as part of my awakening from the dream of separation.

The intelligence in life manifests everything that is known as thoughts in the human mind in any moment. This signifies that the intelligence in life makes everything happen in life and it is not the mind that makes everything happen in life in any moment.

There is no judgment in the intelligence of life. There is judgment in the human mind. There is no preference in the intelligence of life. There is preference in the human mind. There is no beginning and end in the intelligence of life. There are no thoughts or actions in the intelligence of life. There are both thoughts and actions in the minds of human albeit as illusory appearances within the intelligence that is life.

If someone says to you that you lack intelligence or you are stupid this is all the ego as it prides itself of ownership of intelligence, all illusory of course. Real intelligence is that which made a universe from nothing and is brainless.
Your dirty deception is to push everything an unknown which is illusory and cannot be proven.
Then you blatantly use that illusion as a ground of your argument.
Note any small kid use such a strategy.

Another one is 'Age' who claimed 'I have no beliefs at all,' but then proceed to argue on all sorts of claims based on real beliefs.

Here is what Kant accused Plato of doing with Ideas.
Kant in CPR wrote:It was thus that Plato left the World of the Senses, as setting too narrow Limits to the Understanding, and ventured out beyond it on the wings of the Ideas, in the empty Space of the Pure Understanding.

He [Plato] did not observe that with all his efforts he made no advance meeting no resistance that might, as it were, serve as a support upon which he could take a stand, to which he could apply his powers, and so set his Understanding in motion.
It is, indeed, the common fate of Human Reason to complete its Speculative Structures as speedily as may be, and only afterwards to enquire whether the foundations are reliable.

All sorts of excuses will then be appealed to, in order to reassure us of their solidity, or rather indeed to enable us to dispense altogether with so late and so dangerous an enquiry.
-A5
Point is whatever claims are made they must be subjected to the full range of critical thinking, rationality and testings, from common sense, to Science to Philosophy-proper.

Walker
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Re: The thoughts of Nisargadatta Maharaj

Post by Walker » Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:36 am

VA wrote:I am not in a position nor in interested in speculating on what is going on.
An honest answer. Gracias.

The first I heard of this was Mother Teresa.

Did you ever hurt upon encountering the real suffering of another? Hurt so much that physical pain shoots through your chest and your heart actually aches, deep, like everything around it has suddenly been yanked away and yet it feels like it’s being squeezed? It’s not at all pleasant. It happens when you’re wide open. When it happens you can’t give up, you can’t not try. All attention, all purpose of existence turns to this immediate need, and you will do anything to help end this suffering, no matter what, and if you don’t know what to do, you do what you can, even if it’s to hold the person, smother them with kisses, affection, love, so that they are not alone. I could see a saint being possessed by this, doing whatever it takes, without knowing what to do. Shame and revulsion are not in the same realm as true love, and preserving the other becomes the only cause for self-preservation, for Boddhisattva.

Walker
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Re: The thoughts of Nisargadatta Maharaj

Post by Walker » Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:18 am

Re: Amma

I didn't check your Amma link, pretty sure I know who you mean.

She has handlers. People who shield her, or at least limit her exposure to the world with its endless suffering, for practical fear it would devour her and drain her life away, although when connected to infinite energy one is fed and not depleted, and her body could likely outlast many of her protectors. She is a Daniel in the Lion's Den type of person, perpetually. Her big thing is darshan, being available, her entire being there in the immediacy of the moment, which washes away suffering in the immediacy of the moment and the memory will stay forever.

Veritas Aequitas
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Re: The thoughts of Nisargadatta Maharaj

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:20 am

Walker wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:36 am
VA wrote:I am not in a position nor in interested in speculating on what is going on.
An honest answer. Gracias.

The first I heard of this was Mother Teresa.

Did you ever hurt upon encountering the real suffering of another? Hurt so much that physical pain shoots through your chest and your heart actually aches, deep, like everything around it has suddenly been yanked away and yet it feels like it’s being squeezed? It’s not at all pleasant.

It happens when you’re wide open. When it happens you can’t give up, you can’t not try. All attention, all purpose of existence turns to this immediate need, and you will do anything to help end this suffering, no matter what, and if you don’t know what to do, you do what you can, even if it’s to hold the person, smother them with kisses, affection, love, so that they are not alone.

I could see a saint being possessed by this, doing whatever it takes, without knowing what to do.

Shame and revulsion are not in the same realm as true love, and preserving the other becomes the only cause for self-preservation, for Boddhisattva.
Personally I don't feel 'hurt' at all by all the terrible evil and violent acts going around the world but somehow I am triggered to do something about it in wanting to find and contribute solutions. If I am not doing on the ground, at least I will speak and express my thoughts.

Whatever I do and act I put that via the mindfulness process and ensure I don't do anything mindless and stupid.

There are many people who are triggered by their inherent empathic and compassionate tendencies and act blindly thereupon.

I appreciate those [saints and all] who act positively, but to kiss and suck the pus of lepers is stupid. These supposedly 'saints' had already done enough to humanity, there is no need to put and expose themselves to unnecessary risks. [perhaps it is was all a trick].

Walker
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Re: The thoughts of Nisargadatta Maharaj

Post by Walker » Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:37 am

Yes, but the focus is not what you would not do.
The focus is what some saints do, and why.

These are not stupid people, these saints.

Yes, awakening to empathy can be debilitating and make one useless. Probably better to have never been blocked.

It’s also the reason why sages such as Sri Ramana Maharshi advise seven years of silence following such an opening to the immediacy of suffering and the answer to the big question, whatever that may be.

Silence and isolation allows reintegration of the changed one back into life without the corruption of outside confusion.

However, you’re discounting one very important aspect of the situation, VA.

Licking has cured lepers.

I know, I know. Not in the lab, which puts it in the same realm of understanding as dark matter/energy.

One interesting scientific correlation, which you'll appreciate, is this:

Not to any way demean saints, but looking at it objectively, without interjecting what you would do, rather than what saints do ...

- Dogs interact with humans on an emotional level.

- Dogs are pure, raw emotion.

- If you have a wound, a dog will lick it.

- The wound will heal properly.

Do you see?

Walker
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Re: The thoughts of Nisargadatta Maharaj

Post by Walker » Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:01 am

Hey, it's Halloween time, which is a strange American custom celebrated by children. Why adults too? Probably to laugh at mortality since many masks are themed on suffering, what do you think?
VT wrote:Personally I don't feel 'hurt' at all by all the terrible evil and violent acts going around the world ...
Is that your topic?

It wasn't mine.

I was careful to stress the context of the immediacy of suffering.
Encountering suffering physically, in the moment.

Not the context of your abstraction.
That's just another movie, a tenuous connection to reality.

Forget about manipulating if want honest dialogue, VA.

You just have to be honest.

:)
Last edited by Walker on Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

Veritas Aequitas
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Re: The thoughts of Nisargadatta Maharaj

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:41 am

Walker wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:37 am
Yes, but the focus is not what you would not do.
The focus is what some saints do, and why.

These are not stupid people, these saints.

Yes, awakening to empathy can be debilitating and make one useless. Probably better to have never been blocked.

It’s also the reason why sages such as Sri Ramana Maharshi advise seven years of silence following such an opening to the immediacy of suffering and the answer to the big question, whatever that may be.

Silence and isolation allows reintegration of the changed one back into life without the corruption of outside confusion.

However, you’re discounting one very important aspect of the situation, VA.

Licking has cured lepers.

I know, I know. Not in the lab, which puts it in the same realm of understanding as dark matter/energy.

One interesting scientific correlation, which you'll appreciate, is this:

Not to any way demean saints, but looking at it objectively, without interjecting what you would do, rather than what saints do ...

- Dogs interact with humans on an emotional level.

- Dogs are pure, raw emotion.

- If you have a wound, a dog will lick it.

- The wound will heal properly.

Do you see?
I have not read of Sri Ramana Maharshi doing stupid things, but there are many sages, gurus and the likes with many [thousands to millions] followers who have done very stupid things.

Note
List of religious leaders convicted of crimes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_r ... _of_crimes

Dogs [some live in slum, some eat shit and don't die] licking wounds may be an analogy to saints leaking lepers to infer that these saints may have a good immunity system arising from their spiritual practice.
But definitely, one cannot speculate there is dark energy or a God having anything to do with it.

Here is Wim Hof who practices Tibetan Buddhism Meditation to the extent his immunity system is so strong that scientists speculate he could withstand any cancer attack.
Can the Iceman, with his superhuman abilities, also ward off disease?

To test’s Hof’s conscious immune system control, researchers at Radboud University Nijmegen Medical Centre injected him with an endotoxin (bacteria) which causes flu-like symptoms and inflammation.

What did the doctors find? The test results showed that the injected bacteria had zero impact on the Iceman. In other words, his meditation fueled immune system forced the pathogen into submission. Pretty amazing.

But the question then becomes, is Wim Hof just a freak of nature, one in a billion, an extreme outlier?

https://eocinstitute.org/meditation/how ... -immunity/
To avoid doubts the best solution is to subject these 'saints' to scientific tests.
Note Randi's $1 million dollars Challenge
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Milli ... _Challenge

Walker
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Re: The thoughts of Nisargadatta Maharaj

Post by Walker » Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:45 am

You're off on another topic, in your own little world.

The fact is, science can't explain the saints, so science says "stupid and crazy."

Don't blame the saints.

The fact is, science can't explain the universe, so science says, "Dark Matter."

Don't question this strange logic, or you're branded, Johnny Yuma, err make that Chuck Connors.

:wink:

Veritas Aequitas
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Re: The thoughts of Nisargadatta Maharaj

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:44 am

Walker wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:45 am
You're off on another topic, in your own little world.

The fact is, science can't explain the saints, so science says "stupid and crazy."

Don't blame the saints.

The fact is, science can't explain the universe, so science says, "Dark Matter."

Don't question this strange logic, or you're branded, Johnny Yuma, err make that Chuck Connors.

:wink:
Why the need for threats? The primary ground should be based on justifiable rational views, otherwise one has to admit one's own psychological weaknesses, e.g. no choice but by faith.

I do not claim Science gives absolute answers but Science at least provide some baseline rationality to any knowledge.
As I had stated many times, according to Karl Popper, scientific theories are at best polished conjectures which I agree.

Those religions and spiritual gurus who dare not expose their doctrines to Science are intellectual cowards to hide some psychological deficiencies.

Note this from the braver self-assured Dalai Lama;
“If scientific analysis were conclusively to demonstrate certain claims in Buddhism to be false, then we must accept the findings of science and abandon those claims.”

― Dalai Lama XIV, The Universe in a Single Atom: The Convergence of Science and Spirituality

Walker
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Re: The thoughts of Nisargadatta Maharaj

Post by Walker » Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:38 pm

Why the twisted interpretation of threat?
You admit that you don't know, and don't care to know.

No need to feel threatened over your own willful ignorance.

Your own little world excludes what the saint knows.
The saint’s world includes what you know. (Mother Teresa was a scientifically trained nurse)

Simple arithmetic.
One world is less than two.

Your knowledge is less than that of a saint.
Smaller, lesser. Mundane.

There is no rational need to diminish others because of that, with your innuendos of bravery, and cowardice.
There is only your ignorance, and emotional need to do so.

:)

Don’t be a sponge. Think. Use the mind.

Throughout history, saints have healed the afflicted. Rather than try to isolate phenomena from conditions that contribute to the cause of phenomena, rather than deny that this is, rather than think of ways that it cannot be even though it is, and rather than make an issue of that which is not the topic, think of how it is that it is, because that is the topic.

And if you don’t accept that it is, then you’re off on another topic.

You see? Rationality not only sorts things out, it identifies the inevitable, judgmental, lack of focus on a single issue that seems to often afflict discussions.

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