Why Liberals are better people than Conservatives

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philosopher
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Why Liberals are better people than Conservatives

Post by philosopher » Sun Oct 28, 2018 3:18 pm

*deleted*
Last edited by philosopher on Sun Oct 28, 2018 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

FlashDangerpants
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Re: Why Liberals are better people than Conservatives

Post by FlashDangerpants » Sun Oct 28, 2018 3:36 pm

That is some of the worst bullshit I have ever read. At a time when this forum is under daily siege from the militant alt-right, you somehow make them look reasonable because you are an utter moron.

You can't begin an argument about someone else being unreasonable with the phrase "Conservatives are judgmental" if you are going to end your arg with "If there's anyone who should be wiped off the planet Earth, its the CONSERVATIVES!" that's just unforgivably stupid.

Everything you wrote in between those bits is equally dire.

There is nothing that can be done to salvage your work. If you are even remotely decent you will simply apologise for it. If not, then you can just exist as the worthless piece of shit that Walker is always banging on about, and the pair of you deserve each other.

Belinda
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Re: Why Liberals are better people than Conservatives

Post by Belinda » Sun Oct 28, 2018 3:49 pm

In a democracy Conservative is the party that most represents the ruling elite.The tide is full in human affairs when the ruling elite is securely in power. Therefore we can say that those who are not necessarily among the ruling elite but who nevertheless vote Conservative are optimists.

What we may call 'liberals' are pessimists who can see that the Conservatives' support for status quo is wrong whether it's stupidly optimistic in the good times or whether it's oppressively optimistic in the bad times.

philosopher
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Re: Why Liberals are better people than Conservatives

Post by philosopher » Sun Oct 28, 2018 4:21 pm

FlashDangerpants wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 3:36 pm
You can't begin an argument about someone else being unreasonable with the phrase "Conservatives are judgmental" if you are going to end your arg with "If there's anyone who should be wiped off the planet Earth, its the CONSERVATIVES!" that's just unforgivably stupid.
That's because Conservatives threaten everyone who disagree with their conservative opinions.
FlashDangerpants wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 3:36 pm
There is nothing that can be done to salvage your work. If you are even remotely decent you will simply apologise for it. If not, then you can just exist as the worthless piece of shit that Walker is always banging on about, and the pair of you deserve each other.
I've deleted my post. Happy now?

FlashDangerpants
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Re: Why Liberals are better people than Conservatives

Post by FlashDangerpants » Sun Oct 28, 2018 4:30 pm

philosopher wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 4:21 pm
I've deleted my post. Happy now?
I guess. I presume you did so because you realised it was terrible bullshit, not because you think you are getting some points for being cyberbullied?

philosopher
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Re: Why Liberals are better people than Conservatives

Post by philosopher » Sun Oct 28, 2018 5:28 pm

FlashDangerpants wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 4:30 pm
philosopher wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 4:21 pm
I've deleted my post. Happy now?
I guess. I presume you did so because you realised it was terrible bullshit, not because you think you are getting some points for being cyberbullied?
I realized I was wrong, and as a matter of fact, I visited my thread again to delete it entirely, hoping nobody had replied.

But I can't point out exactly how it is bullshit. Care to explain it to me?

FlashDangerpants
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Re: Why Liberals are better people than Conservatives

Post by FlashDangerpants » Sun Oct 28, 2018 5:55 pm

philosopher wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 5:28 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 4:30 pm
philosopher wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 4:21 pm
I've deleted my post. Happy now?
I guess. I presume you did so because you realised it was terrible bullshit, not because you think you are getting some points for being cyberbullied?
I realized I was wrong, and as a matter of fact, I visited my thread again to delete it entirely, hoping nobody had replied.

But I can't point out exactly how it is bullshit. Care to explain it to me?
It failed on multiple levels.

Primarily there is a concept in philosophy which few here understand called the Ad Hominem argument. Everybody seems to think that it is an automatic fail on grounds of logical fallacy, and on top of that the large majority cannot identify any sort of ad hom anyway, mistaking any and all insults for the same. So, here's the thing, if you write "Conservatives are wrong because they are judgmental" that may be true. But you are open to non-fallacious perfectly legitimate ad hominem response if you follow up with some insanely judgmental statement such as "they should be wiped out". You personally have to remain non-judgmental, having identitied judgmentalism as a source of error. Somebody else, somebody who has not claimed this is a bad trait can remain judgmental becuse the argument strikes the man.

The rest of your stuff was simply not argued with validity. Despite the screen name you have awarded yourself, you just don't construct your arguments philosophically. A good philosophical argument would at the very least begin with premises which, if true, support a conclusion that is based upon them, and then proceed to argue for the truth of those premises. Your substitute for this sort of preceise reasoning is something less compelling. You feel very strongly about some stuff, and you shout at the internet about it, apparently hoping that your strength of feeling will do the work for you, which it will never do.

A real philosopher would take some care to establish what a conservative actually is, as well as a liberal. He would not for instance insist that all conservatives belong to any religion, as many do not. He definitely would not conflate atheism with liberalism, because there are very obvious examples of illiberal atheists (Stalin for instance).

For the remainder you would have to repost what you deleted if you want specific criticism, and I cannot recommend that course of action.

philosopher
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Re: Why Liberals are better people than Conservatives

Post by philosopher » Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:22 pm

FlashDangerpants wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 5:55 pm
philosopher wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 5:28 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 4:30 pm

I guess. I presume you did so because you realised it was terrible bullshit, not because you think you are getting some points for being cyberbullied?
I realized I was wrong, and as a matter of fact, I visited my thread again to delete it entirely, hoping nobody had replied.

But I can't point out exactly how it is bullshit. Care to explain it to me?
It failed on multiple levels.

Primarily there is a concept in philosophy which few here understand called the Ad Hominem argument. Everybody seems to think that it is an automatic fail on grounds of logical fallacy, and on top of that the large majority cannot identify any sort of ad hom anyway, mistaking any and all insults for the same. So, here's the thing, if you write "Conservatives are wrong because they are judgmental" that may be true. But you are open to non-fallacious perfectly legitimate ad hominem response if you follow up with some insanely judgmental statement such as "they should be wiped out". You personally have to remain non-judgmental, having identitied judgmentalism as a source of error. Somebody else, somebody who has not claimed this is a bad trait can remain judgmental becuse the argument strikes the man.

The rest of your stuff was simply not argued with validity. Despite the screen name you have awarded yourself, you just don't construct your arguments philosophically. A good philosophical argument would at the very least begin with premises which, if true, support a conclusion that is based upon them, and then proceed to argue for the truth of those premises. Your substitute for this sort of preceise reasoning is something less compelling. You feel very strongly about some stuff, and you shout at the internet about it, apparently hoping that your strength of feeling will do the work for you, which it will never do.

A real philosopher would take some care to establish what a conservative actually is, as well as a liberal. He would not for instance insist that all conservatives belong to any religion, as many do not. He definitely would not conflate atheism with liberalism, because there are very obvious examples of illiberal atheists (Stalin for instance).

For the remainder you would have to repost what you deleted if you want specific criticism, and I cannot recommend that course of action.
My reasoning was about the the statement that many Conservatives (those who vote Conservative in various countries) generally speaking are defined by being:

* Low-educated, working-class.
* Phobic of various stuff that isn't people's fault (those they are phobic against, ie. skin color, nationality etc.).
* Highly religious (ie. fundamentalist christians, muslims etc.).
* Deny that climate-change is caused by humans.
* Say that everything scientists prove or disprove of, is "fake news" - except when it supports their own opinions.

They call themselves Conservatives and proclaim these values to be Conservative Values, and those are the ones I was attacking.

Whereas virtually all the liberals I've met are:

* Highly educated.
* Non-phobic.
* Atheist, agnostic or liberal religious.
* Accept that climate change is caused by humans.
* Accept everything where scientific consensus exist.

I could be wrong about both groups though. But this is the picture I get when discussing with conservatives or liberals, and the fact that everyone who's in either groups say they are conservatives/liberals respectively.

I don't know what a conservative is, I only know who call themselves conservatives and who call themselves liberals.

FlashDangerpants
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Re: Why Liberals are better people than Conservatives

Post by FlashDangerpants » Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:56 pm

philosopher wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:22 pm
My reasoning was about the the statement that many Conservatives (those who vote Conservative in various countries) generally speaking are defined by being:

* Low-educated, working-class.
* Phobic of various stuff that isn't people's fault (those they are phobic against, ie. skin color, nationality etc.).
* Highly religious (ie. fundamentalist christians, muslims etc.).
* Deny that climate-change is caused by humans.
* Say that everything scientists prove or disprove of, is "fake news" - except when it supports their own opinions.

They call themselves Conservatives and proclaim these values to be Conservative Values, and those are the ones I was attacking.
That list has no real factual basis. There are conservatives who are born rich - Donald Trump for instance. There are many conservatives who don't dispute the science of global warming, and indeed many of the scientists who do the science are conservatives. There are many who do not follow any religion at all. And it is a straight up scandalous lie to assert without very good reason that they must all be racists.

It is also a ridiculous slur to suppose that non conservatives are immune to these failings, which are common among all sectors of society.
philosopher wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:22 pm
Whereas virtually all the liberals I've met are:
This is no good. The phrase "all the liberals I've met" instantly demotes your entire evidence base to statistically insignificant anecdote.
philosopher wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:22 pm
* Highly educated.
* Non-phobic.
* Atheist, agnostic or liberal religious.
* Accept that climate change is caused by humans.
* Accept everything where scientific consensus exist.

I could be wrong about both groups though. But this is the picture I get when discussing with conservatives or liberals, and the fact that everyone who's in either groups say they are conservatives/liberals respectively.
One of the highest concentrations of children without vaccination is to be found in Silicone Valley, amongst the offspring of highly educated liberals. None of your claims are justifiable by evidence, but they are all easily dismissed by little factoids like that. You have created this problem for yourself by arguing unreliably not just from the particular to the general, which is never a smart plan, but from a flimsy list of particulars to the general, which exponentially increases the impossibility of the task.

From the perspective of making a decent argument worthy of a philosopher, you must be able to analyse what you are writing and spot these problems in advance.
philosopher wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:22 pm
I don't know what a conservative is, I only know who call themselves conservatives and who call themselves liberals.
And here you invalidate your whole position in one hit. If you cannot state clearly what makes a person conservative or liberal, you cannot possibly argue that this thing you are unable to identify makes one set bad and the other good.

philosopher
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Re: Why Liberals are better people than Conservatives

Post by philosopher » Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:07 pm

FlashDangerpants wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:56 pm
That list has no real factual basis. There are conservatives who are born rich - Donald Trump for instance.
Born rich does not equal to high or low educated. You could be born rich, yet be low educated.
FlashDangerpants wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:56 pm
There are many conservatives who don't dispute the science of global warming, and indeed many of the scientists who do the science are conservatives. There are many who do not follow any religion at all. And it is a straight up scandalous lie to assert without very good reason that they must all be racists.
It is a small percentage of all the conservatives. I agree that I most rich and well-educated people vote conservative, but this is because they understand how to manipulate the voters to vote the same thing.

Indeed the rich and well educated are mostly conservative, but that is because conservative = ruling class (usually) and the rich/well-educated are ruling class.

What really matters are the voters, not the 1 % rich.

The voters who vote conservative, are mostly working class, low educated, racist, nationalist fascists. The 1 % who rules the party are the ones who accept all those traits, not neccessarily because they believe in that shit, but simply because it attracts the voters = power.

I guess at least 60 % of voters in any democracy are stupid working class fascist garbage, the other 40 % are decent working class. The fascist traits extends far into the Democratic party of U.S. and Social-Democrats in Europe, which is why I'm making a guess of 60 % conservatives in any given democracy of a typical voting population.

Conservatives exists in nearly all political parties. I'm living in Europe, and here the Conservatives extends far into the left-leaning parties, even socialist parties have right wing conservatives. I'm not talking specifically of the "Conservative Party" as THE Conservative Party, but conservatives as a percentage of a population. There may be liberals in the conservative or right wing parties as well but they are by far outnumbered.

Peasants of the 18th century were mostly conservatives, the elite was liberal. It was the liberal elite who pushed for reforms to allow democracies in Europe. The peasants of the 18th century were against these reforms.
FlashDangerpants wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:56 pm
This is no good. The phrase "all the liberals I've met" instantly demotes your entire evidence base to statistically insignificant anecdote.
I'm merely pointing out conservatives who say they are conservatives and who say they believe in those values.

FlashDangerpants
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Re: Why Liberals are better people than Conservatives

Post by FlashDangerpants » Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:23 pm

philosopher wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:07 pm
I guess at least 60 % of voters in any democracy are stupid working class fascist garbage, the other 40 % are decent working class. The fascist traits extends far into the Democratic party of U.S. and Social-Democrats in Europe, which is why I'm making a guess of 60 % conservatives in any given democracy of a typical voting population.
Pure drivel. You are now resorting to what you call 'guessing' but is actually plain old fashioned bullshitting. You are merely presenting your own uneducated prejudice as if it were made fact just by you believing it. You can't possibly hope that complete shit is to be treated as evidence of anything.

You have paid no attention to the comments I made regarding the quality and format of your argument, and are just doubling down on the worst elements of it.

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Why Liberals are better people than Conservatives

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:32 pm

What makes you think 'Conservatives' can't be liberal?

gaffo
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Re: Why Liberals are better people than Conservatives

Post by gaffo » Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:57 am

philosopher wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 4:21 pm

I've deleted my post. Happy now?
sorry i missed it ;-(.

I suspect we share a similar global viewpoint.

perchance you confused "Conservatives" (of which i do value the vlews of some i.e.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Gergen

rem way back when he was on TV every friday on PBS McNeil Lear news hour......of course dinosaur palieoconservatives like him and company have been sent to the woodshed (with Bret Scocroft/co) - since the PNAC days of 2002. so I can understand how you do not see that today's proclaimed "conservatives" are not Scocroft/Gergens - but simple FASCISTS instead.

but do try to be informed so as to know the difference between the two.

gaffo
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Re: Why Liberals are better people than Conservatives

Post by gaffo » Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:12 am

philosopher wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:07 pm
I'm living in Europe, and here the Conservatives extends far into the left-leaning parties, even socialist parties have right wing conservatives.
where are you?

Brexit? (Englander)?

if so kiss Gibralter and N. Ireland goodbye - neither are worth "the troubles"/barbed wire/guards/etc....

say goodbye to them.

and thank your pinheaded moronic Britianers for not seeing the inevitable domino effect of that vote.

to..........losing Ireland, Gibralter and...........wait for it............wait....................wait.......

SCOTLAND - then the reforendum come around again after Brexit and the Scotts see the foolishness and dismal economy and say "fuck this UK we are out!" - to return to the EU - which they voted to stay in in 2016 anyway!

---2020

UK =England

LOL, serves the RUBES reich, the fools!

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Why Liberals are better people than Conservatives

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:59 am

gaffo wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:12 am
philosopher wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:07 pm
I'm living in Europe, and here the Conservatives extends far into the left-leaning parties, even socialist parties have right wing conservatives.
where are you?

Brexit? (Englander)?

if so kiss Gibralter and N. Ireland goodbye - neither are worth "the troubles"/barbed wire/guards/etc....

say goodbye to them.

and thank your pinheaded moronic Britianers for not seeing the inevitable domino effect of that vote.

to..........losing Ireland, Gibralter and...........wait for it............wait....................wait.......

SCOTLAND - then the reforendum come around again after Brexit and the Scotts see the foolishness and dismal economy and say "fuck this UK we are out!" - to return to the EU - which they voted to stay in in 2016 anyway!

---2020

UK =England

LOL, serves the RUBES reich, the fools!
How is it any of your business what the 'Brits' want? They seemed to manage pretty well before the EU.

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