"He did it first!"

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

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gaffo
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Re: "He did it first!"

Post by gaffo »

Judaka wrote: Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:25 am
there may be extenuating circumstances.

all is not black/white. and why we have courts/jurie
Err, the courts do not trial someone to decide whether someone was being rational but whether or not they broke the law.
only the Judge is so confined.

Jurors have the full liberty to think and rule outside of Law, and so take conscience and motive into their final rulings.

such power is one of the unenumorated Rights in our (assuming you are an American) 9th Amendment to the Bill of Rights.
Judaka
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Re: "He did it first!"

Post by Judaka »

Jurors have the full liberty to think and rule outside of Law, and so take conscience and motive into their final rulings.
Jurors are supposed to decide whether the prosecution gave sufficient evidence to prove the defendant guilty of the crime of which they are charged. They are not deciding whether or not the defendant acted rationally or not and they don't have "full liberty to think and rule outside of the law".
Impenitent
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Re: "He did it first!"

Post by Impenitent »

depending on the insanity defense...

-Imp
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Re: "He did it first!"

Post by Philosophy Explorer »

Dalek Prime wrote: Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:55 pm Wyatt Earp lived to 80 or so. Know how he did it? He hit the guy hard before the guy could cause more trouble than just being a smart mouth.
You should Google "Did Wyatt Earp ever get into a fistfight?" for some interesting reading DP.

🇺🇲PhilX🇺🇲
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Re: "He did it first!"

Post by Dalek Prime »

Philosophy Explorer wrote: Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:19 pm
Dalek Prime wrote: Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:55 pm Wyatt Earp lived to 80 or so. Know how he did it? He hit the guy hard before the guy could cause more trouble than just being a smart mouth.
You should Google "Did Wyatt Earp ever get into a fistfight?" for some interesting reading DP.

🇺🇲PhilX🇺🇲
Is this about the rigged boxing match?
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Re: "He did it first!"

Post by Philosophy Explorer »

Dalek Prime wrote: Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:30 pm
Philosophy Explorer wrote: Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:19 pm
Dalek Prime wrote: Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:55 pm Wyatt Earp lived to 80 or so. Know how he did it? He hit the guy hard before the guy could cause more trouble than just being a smart mouth.
You should Google "Did Wyatt Earp ever get into a fistfight?" for some interesting reading DP.

🇺🇲PhilX🇺🇲
Is this about the rigged boxing match?
Yup. I don't recall any documentation (Star Trek notwithstanding) that he ever got into a fistfight.

🇺🇲PhilX🇺🇲
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Re: "He did it first!"

Post by Dalek Prime »

Philosophy Explorer wrote: Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:35 pm
Dalek Prime wrote: Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:30 pm
Philosophy Explorer wrote: Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:19 pm

You should Google "Did Wyatt Earp ever get into a fistfight?" for some interesting reading DP.

🇺🇲PhilX🇺🇲
Is this about the rigged boxing match?
Yup. I don't recall any documentation (Star Trek notwithstanding) that he ever got into a fistfight.

🇺🇲PhilX🇺🇲
Never got hit at any rate. He did shoot his own foot though. He probably blindsided guys before they could.

The Masterson's were Canuckleheads, btw.
TimeSeeker
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Re: "He did it first!"

Post by TimeSeeker »

Here is what I am optimising for: going home to my family unharmed. I do not start fights - I de-escalate. If my de-escalation fails - I optimize for ending any fight I find myself in as quickly as possible.

For every second I spend fighting - I risk injury to self. The sooner the fight ends - the better for me.

If you throw a punch (lethal force) - I will shoot you in the face. Your well-being is your problem, not mine.
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QuantumT
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Re: "He did it first!"

Post by QuantumT »

gaffo wrote: Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:30 am I agree - you missunderstood my reply to you (we are in agreement sir) - refer to similar threads about the same thing in others sections of this forum - where i affirm Recipricty over Golden Rule as the better general rule in the real world.

thanks for reply
Yeah, I saw it could mean both, but I have a bad habbit of assuming the worst. Sorry :wink:
gaffo
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Re: "He did it first!"

Post by gaffo »

Judaka wrote: Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:40 am
Jurors have the full liberty to think and rule outside of Law, and so take conscience and motive into their final rulings.
Jurors are supposed to decide whether the prosecution gave sufficient evidence to prove the defendant guilty of the crime of which they are charged. They are not deciding whether or not the defendant acted rationally or not and they don't have "full liberty to think and rule outside of the law".
yes, they do.

you are missinformed.

Supreme Court Jusice John Jay has affirmed what i stated above as a proper role of a juror - 235 yrs ago.

look his quote up if you doubt me.

John Jay was not a nobody, he was one of America's founding fathers. - a signatory in the treat that ended Revolutionary war (with Franklin).
gaffo
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Re: "He did it first!"

Post by gaffo »

“The jury has the right to judge both the law as well as the fact in controversy.”
~ John Jay
(1745-1829) first Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, First President of the United States - preceding George Washington, one of three men most responsible for the US Constitution
in the unanimous Supreme Court decision to uphold the jurors verdict of not guilty in Georgia v. Brailsford, 1794
see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_v. ... %281794%29
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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk »

http://www.friesian.com/jury.htm

Quotes on the Powers
and Duties of Juries

It is not only [the juror's] right, but his duty...to find the verdict according to his own best understanding, judgment, and conscience, though in direct opposition to the direction of the court.
John Adams, 1771

.....it is usual for the jurors to decide the fact, and to refer the law arising on it to the decision of the judges. But this division of the subject lies with their discretion only. And if the question relate to any point of public liberty, or if it be one of those in which the judges may be suspected of bias, the jury undertake to decide both law and fact.
Thomas Jefferson, "Notes on Virginia," 1782

Another apprehension [about the French Revolution] is, that a majority cannot be induced to adopt the trial by jury; and I consider that as the only anchor ever yet imagined by man, by which a government can be held to the principles of its constitution....
Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Tom Paine, 1789

It is presumed, that juries are the best judges of facts; it is, on the other hand, presumed that courts are the best judges of law. But still both objects are within your power of decision.....you have a right to take it upon yourselves to judge of both, and to determine the law as well as the fact in controversy.
Chief Justice John Jay, Georgia v. Brailsford, 1794

Jurors should acquit, even against the judge's instruction...if exercising their judgement with discretion and honesty they have a clear conviction that the charge of the court is wrong.
Alexander Hamilton, 1804

Petty juries, consisting usually of twelve men, attend courts to try matters of fact in civil causes, and to decide both the law and the fact in criminal prosecutions. The decision of a petty jury is called a verdict.
Noah Webster, Dictionary of the English Language, 1828

In the trial of all criminal cases, the Jury shall be the Judges of Law, as well as of fact, except that the Court may pass upon the sufficiency of the evidence to sustain a conviction
Article XXIII, Constitution of the State of Maryland

In all criminal cases whatsoever, the jury shall have the right to determine the law and the facts.
Article I, §19, Constitution of the State of Indiana

The question here arises, Whether the barons and the people intended that those peers (the jury) should be mere puppets in the hands of the king, exercising no opinion of their own as to the intrinsic merits of the accusations they should try, or the justice of the laws they should be called on to enforce? Whether those haughty and victorious barons, when they had their tyrant king at their feet, gave back to him his throne, with full power to enact any tyrannical laws he might please, reserving only to a jury...the contemptible and servile privilege of ascertaining, (under the dictation of the king, or his judges, as to the laws of evidence), the simple fact whether those laws had been transgressed? Was this the only restraint, which, when they had all power in their hands, they placed upon the tyranny of a king, whose oppressions they had risen in arms to resist? Was it to obtain such a charter as that, that the whole nation had united, as it were, like one man, against their king? Was it on such a charter that they intended to rely, for all future time, for the security of their liberties? No. They were engaged in no such senseless work as that. On the contrary, when they required him to renounce forever the power to punish any freeman, unless by the consent of his peers, they intended those peers should judge of, and try, the whole case on its merits, independently of all arbitrary legislation, or judicial authority, on the part of the king. In this way they took the liberties of each individual -- and thus the liberties of the whole people -- entirely out of the hands of the king, and out of the power of his laws, and placed them in the keeping of the people themselves. And this it was that made the trial by jury the palladium of their liberties.
    The trial by jury, be it observed, was the only real barrier interposed by them against absolute despotism. Could this trial, then, have been such an entire farce as it necessarily must have been, if the jury had had no power to judge of the justice of the laws the people were required to obey? Did it not rather imply that the jury were to judge independently and fearlessly as to everything involved in the charge, and especially as to its intrinsic justice, and thereon give their decision, (unbiased by any legislation of the king,) whether the accused might be punished? The reason of the thing, no less than the historical celebrity of the events, as securing the liberties of the people, and the veneration with which the trail by jury has continued to be regarded, notwithstanding its essence and vitality have been almost entirely extracted from it in practice, would settle the question, if other evidences had left the matter in doubt.
Lysander Spooner, An Essay on the Trail by Jury, 1852

It is universally conceded that a verdict of acquittal, although rendered against the instructions of the judge, is final, and cannot be set aside; and consequently that the jury have the legal power to decide for themselves the law involved in the general issues of guilty or not guilty.
Justices Gray and Shiras, Sparf and Hansen v. United States, 1894, dissent

The jury has the power to bring a verdict in the teeth of both the law and the facts.
Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Horning v. District of Columbia, 1920

If the jury feels the law is unjust, we recognize the undisputed power of the jury to acquit, even if its verdict is contrary to the law as given by a judge, and contrary to the evidence...If the jury feels that the law under which the defendant is accused is unjust, or that exigent circumstances justified the actions of the accused, or for any reason which appeals to their logic or passion, the jury has the power to acquit, and the courts must abide by that decision.
4th Circuit Court of Appeals, United States v. Moylan, 1969

[The jury has an] unreviewable and irreversible power...to acquit in disregard of the instructions on the law given by the trial judge...The pages of history shine on instances of the jury's exercise of its prerogative to disregard uncontradicted evidence and instructions of the judge; for example, acquittals under the fugitive slave law.
D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals, Unites States v. Dougherty, 1972

    'You're not concerned with the law, Members of the Jury,' I told them, 'you are concerned with justice!'
    'That is a quite outrageous thing to say! On the admitted facts of this case, Mr O'Higgins is clearly guilty!' His Honour Judge Graves had decided but the honest twelve would have to return the verdict and I spoke to them. 'A British judge has no power to direct a British jury to find a defendant guilty! I know that much at least.'
    'I shall tell the Jury that he is guilty in law, I warn you.' Graves's warning was in vain. I carried on regardless.
    'His Lordship may tell you that to his heart's content. As a great Lord Chief Justice of England, a judge superior in rank to any in this Court, once said, "It is the duty of the Judge to tell you as a jury what to do, but you have the power to do exactly as you like." And what you do, Members of the Jury, is a matter entirely between God and your own consciences....'
Horace Rumpole [John Mortimer, "Rumpole à la Carte," The Third Rumpole Omnibus, Penguin Books, 1998, p.265]
gaffo
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Re: "He did it first!"

Post by gaffo »

U.S. v. Dougherty, D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals, 1972, 473 F.2d at 1130 and 1132.

The jury has an “unreviewable and irreversible power… to acquit in disregard of the instructions on the law given by the trial judge… The pages of history shine on instances of the jury’s exercise of its prerogative to disregard uncontradicted evidence and instructions of the judge; for example, acquittals under the fugitive slave law.

--------------


“If the jury feels the law is unjust, we recognize the undisputed power of the jury to acquit, even if its verdict is contrary to the law as given by a judge, and contrary to the evidence… If the jury feels that the law under which the defendant is accused is unjust, or that exigent circumstances justified the actions of the accused, or for any reason which appeals to their logic or passion, the jury has the power to acquit, and the courts must abide by that decision.”

United States v. Moylan, 4th Circuit Court of Appeals, 1969, 417 F.2d at 1006.


.........


Schnier v. People, 23 Ill. 17, 30 (1859), quoted in Howe, Juries as Judges of Criminal Law, 52 Harv. L.Rev. 582, 611 (1939):

f they can say upon their oaths that they know the law better than the court does, they have the right to do so, but before assuming so solemn a responsibility, they should be sure that they are not acting from caprice or prejudice . . . but from a deep and confident conviction that the court is wrong and that they are right. Before saying this upon their oaths it is their duty to reflect, whether from their habits of thought, their study and experience, they are better qualified to judge of the law than the court.


..............


John Adams, who became the second U.S. President, in 1771 said of the juror: “It is not only his right, but his duty… to find the verdict according to his own best understanding, judgment, and conscience, though in direct opposition to the direction of the court.”


............


Theophilus Parsons, who became Chief Justice of Massachusetts in 1806 said:

“The people themselves have it in their power effectually to resist usurpation, [the wrongful seizure of authority] without being driven to an appeal to arms. An act of usurpation is not obligatory; it is not law; and any man may be justified in his resistance. Let him be considered as a criminal by the general government, yet only his fellow citizens can convict him; they are his jury, and if they pronounce him innocent, not all the powers of Congress can hurt him; and innocent they certainly will pronounce him, if the supposed law he resisted was an act of usurpation.”


..................


“The judge cannot direct a verdict it is true, and the jury has the power to bring in a verdict in the teeth of both law and facts.” Mr. Justice Holmes, for the majority in Horning v. District of Columbia, 254 U.S. 135, 138 (1920).

..............


“It is manifest from all the accounts we have of the courts in which juries sat, prior to the Magna Charta, such as the court baron, the hundred court, the court leet, and the county court, that they were mere courts of conscience, and that the juries were the judges, deciding causes according to their own notions of equity, and not according to any laws of the king, unless they thought them just.”

Lysander Spooner, An Essay on The Trial by Jury, 64 (John P. Jewett & Co., 1852).

“Whether those haughty and victorious barons, when they had their tyrant king at their feet, gave back to him his throne, with full power to enact any tyrannical laws he might please, reserving only to a jury (“the country”) the contemptible and servile privilege of ascertaining, (under the dictation of the king, or his judges, as to the laws of evidence), the simple fact whether those laws had been transgressed? Was this the only restraint, which, when they had all power in their hands, they placed upon the tyranny of a king, whose oppressions they had risen in arms to resist? . . . No . . . On the contrary, when they required him to renounce forever the power to punish any freeman, unless by the consent of his peers, they intended those peers should judge of, and try, the whole case on its merits, independently of all arbitrary legislation, or judicial authority on the part of the king. In this way they took the liberties of each individual—and thus the liberties of the whole people—entirely out of the hands of the king, and out of the power of his laws, and placed them in the keeping of the people themselves. And this it was that made the trial by jury the palladium of their liberties.” Id. at


.............


From Bushel’s Case, Judge Vaughan wrote, explaining why jurors can’t be punished for bringing a verdict against the instructions of the judge:

“To what end must they undergo the heavy punishment of the villainous judgment, if after all this they implicitly must give a verdict by the dictates and authority of another man, under pain of fines and imprisonment, when sworn to do it according to the best of their own knowledge? A man cannot see by anothers eye, nor hear by anothers ear, no more can a man conclude or infer the thing to be resolved by anothers understanding or reasoning; and though the verdict be right the jury give, yet they being not assured it is so from their own understanding, are forsworn, at least in foro conscientiae.”

How. St.Tr. 6:999 (1670) at 1012.


..................


Justice Willes, from the dissent in Dean of St. Asaph’s Case, How. St.Tr. 21:847 (1785) at 1040 1041.

“[T]he jury had an undoubted right to form their verdict themselves according to their consciences, applying the law to the fact. If it were otherwise, the first principle of the law of England would be defeated and overthrown. If the twelve judges were to assert the contrary again and again, he would deny it utterly, because every Englishman was to be tried by his country; and who was his country but his twelve peers, sworn to condemn or acquit according to their consciences? If the opposite doctrine were to obtain, trial by jury would be a nominal trial, a mere form; for, in fact, the judge, and not the jury, would try the man. He could contend for the truth of this argument to the latest hour of his life, manibus pedibusque. With regard to the judge stating to the jury what the law was upon each particular case, it was his undoubted duty so to do; but, having done so, the jury were to take both law and fact into their consideration, and to exercise their discretion and discharge their consciences.”

....................


Alexander Hamilton in People v. Croswell

“The Chief Justice misdirected the jury, in saying they had no right to judge of the intent and of the law. In criminal cases, the defendant does not spread upon the record the merits of the defence, but consolidates the whole in the plea of not guilty. This plea embraces the whole matter of law and fact involved in the charge, and the jury have an undoubted right to give a general verdict, which decides both law and fact . . . All the cases agree that the jury have the power to decide the law as well as the fact; and if the law gives them the power, it gives them the right also. Power and right are convertible terms, when the law authorizes the doing of an act which shall be final, and for the doing of which the agent is not responsible.

“It is admitted to be the duty of the court to direct the jury as to the law, and it is advisable for the jury in most cases, to receive the law from the court; and in all cases, they ought to pay respectful attention to the opinion of the court. But, it is also their duty to exercise their judgments upon the law, as well as the fact; and if they have a clear conviction that the law is different from what is stated to be by the court, the jury are bound, in such cases, by the superior obligations of conscience, to follow their own convictions. It is essential to the security of personal rights and public liberty, that the jury should have and exercise the power to judge both of the law and of the criminal intent.

“The jury ought, undoubtedly, to pay every respectful regard to the opinion of the court; but suppose a trial in a capital case, and the jury are satisfied from the arguments of counsel, the law authorities that are read, and their own judgment, upon the application of the law to the facts, (for the criminal law consists in general of plain principles,) that the law arising in the case is different from that which the court advances, are they not bound by their oaths, by their duty to their creator and themselves, to pronounce according to their convictions? To oblige them, in such a case, to follow implicitly the direction of the court, is to make them commit perjury, and homicide, under the forms of law. The victim is sacrificed; he is executed; he perishes without redress.

n the general distribution of power, in any system of jurisprudence, the cognizance of law belongs to the court, of fact to the jury; that as often as they are not blended, the power of the court is absolute and exclusive. That, in civil cases, it is always so, and may rightfully be so exerted. That, in criminal cases, the law and fact being always blended, the jury, for reasons of a political and peculiar nature, for the security of life and liberty, are intrusted with the power of deciding both law and fact.

“That this distinction results, 1. From the ancient forms of pleading, in civil cases; none but special pleas being allowed in matters of law; in criminal, none but the general issue. 2. From the liability of the jury to attaint, in civil cases, and the general power of the court, as its substitute, in granting new trials, and from the exemption of the jury from attaint, in criminal cases, and the defect of power to control their verdicts by new trials; the test of every legal power being its capacity to produce a definitive effect, liable neither to punishment nor control.

“That, in criminal cases, nevertheless, the court are the constitutional advisers of the jury, in matters of law who may compromit their consciences by lightly or rashly disregarding that advice; but may still more compromit their consciences by following it, if, exercising their judgments with discretion and honesty, they have a clear conviction that the charge of the court is wrong.”

Alexander Hamilton, from his argument in People v. Croswell, 3 Johns. Cas. 336 (1804).

BTW - i dislike the term "Jury Nulification" (of course fully support it - FIJA.ORG fan for decades now -support their mission) (as like do radio "pirate" (yes i partake that - prefer "Free-micro-radio").....Jury Pardon is the term i prefer - though sadly it is only used occasionally. ;-(.
gaffo
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Re: "He did it first!"

Post by gaffo »

I see we are in agreement of the proper power/rights of the jury Sir!!!!!!

see (do not get lost in the partisan blinders!) - we argee in the fundementals (though you are a Conservative and me a Liberal) - such matters - as what you and I agree with - transend Con/Lib and Rep/Dem.

I thank you for valuing the "bigger picture" in this particular rather than particular party/fashion of the times.
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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk »

Gaffo,

I'm no conservative.
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