SpheresOfBalance wrote: ↑Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:52 am
It's easy VA! Just ask the question! What Perfection?
Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:26 am
The 'fear for their life' is still there, that is why the grasp of theism is so fundamentally strong in the majority of people at present.
I believe in the freedom of speech and thought but not when such thoughts inspired SOME believers to commit terrible evil and violence as a divine duty to please God [this is glaringly evident].
This is why we need to defang and where possible replace theism with fool proof alternatives to deal with that 'fear for their life' thing.
The idea of 'perfection' is the most effective term to nullify 'God exists'
Perfection from mankind's perspective or perfection from a gods perspective? As surely they would be completely different.
I say that no man could ever know of a perfection from a gods perspective, as men are far too bound by things no god might have to be bound by.
And how could one know that a god would even consider such a concept as perfection.
Surely eternity/infinity breeds no need for such a concept. NO! Perfection is purely a concept of humans due to all the things they want and desire, where they see that having them is somehow paramount, the end all/cure all. It's purely selfishness.
What we each should be doing is simply enjoying everything we have, and not worrying about perfection, except of course anything to do with our technologies, as it's better to build certainty factually rather than guesswork believably. Don't want to get caught in our own mouse traps. Which seems like a point that many are ignoring. But surely I digress due to connectedness, which everything is!
The problem is how do we know there is God's perfection when we have not proven whether God exists or not.
My thesis is, God is an impossibility, so there is no question of God's idea of Perfection.
I have presented there are two main categories of 'perfection' i.e.
- 1. Empirical perfection, e.g. 100/100 marks in an objective tests or 10/10 for a gymnast and the likes. This is relative to a Framework and System.
2. Reasoned Perfection, e.g. an ideal perfect circle that meet certain measurement criteria, the perfect God [absolute, complete, unconditional and the likes].
Whilst empirical and relative perfection are conditional, reasoned or absolute perfection
is very logical and the reasoning is indisputable. What is disputable is whether such absolute perfection exists as real or not?
I had argued God by default must imperatively be 'perfect' as reasoned.
Why humanity must be serious and concerned with the idea of God [by default is perfect] is the idea of the perfect God is claimed by SOME [most] theists to be real to the extent of delivering its command through its prophets/messenger subsequently written in holy books.
What is very real [very evident] is these God-delivered-texts contain evil laden elements which inspired or subliminally compelled SOME evil prone believers to commit terrible evil acts and violence which to them is good and a divine duty to please God.
This is why we must get back to the roots and deal with the question of God and its default perfection, then to defang it.
You know I disagree with that, depending on how one defines their terms. I agree that mankind's version of a "god," that he created long ago, is so full of holes it's not funny. But that does not preclude the creator of all the universe, whatever "it" may be. So I believe in the possibility of a creator, not to be confused in any way, with that of all of mankind's current and past god creations.
as an impossibility to the extent the question of 'God exists?' is moot and a non-starter.
This is why I said earlier that you believe in their god. Your argument did not allow for the possibility of an actual creator, if in fact such a thing exists. It's common for many atheists to believe that mankind's past and present gods are the only creators they have to consider. And in so doing pay credence to those gods as being the only possibility.
My argument for the possibility of a creator that no one, as of yet, is aware of, is that we exist and we can create. We can clone, and possibly soon we may be able to create life from simply elements, heat and magnetic flux, the four forces. That we exist with such capabilities at this relative size does not preclude others at a much larger relative size, quite the contrary. To believe otherwise is surely arrogance. To make us feel special above all other possible things, known or unknown. And I for one, am not so full of ourselves, actually it's quite the opposite. I concentrate more on our flaws, because the good things don't need correcting, only the flaws do.
I agree the pantheistic or panentheistic idea of a God that is a creator, present everywhere and is indifferent to human activities, is not an issue at all
For discussion sake, there is the alternatives of the non-theistic philosophy/spirituality of life that is mostly evil & violent free in their ideology
, e.g. Buddhism, Jainism, Taoism, and the likes.
In the light of the above, thus there is a difference between theistic based philosophy/spirituality and non-theistic ones.
The origin and cause of the theistic drive to theism [some are problematic] and the more refined levels of theism, i.e. pantheistic or panentheistic idea of a God [no evil elements] is due to certain basic psychological drives from an existential crisis. The difference between theism and pantheism is a matter of degrees but they are from the same fundamental drives to a need for completeness and overcoming the dissonance [uncomfortable] of infinite regression re cause and effect.
As Kant argued, theists and pantheists rely upon pseudo rational syllogisms [Pure Reason] to force the closure of this infinite regression - to soothe [subliminally] the discomfort.
Note the non-theistic Buddhists and the likes understood this dissonance, predicament, dilemma and thus they avoid it and deal direct with the existential crisis bypassing the idea of God and be indifferent to infinite regression.
Sure, we must always take the less fortunate under our wings!
But we need to console theists there are fool proof alternatives to deal with the same existential 'fear for life' thoughts.
Agree, so to prevent SOME of them from being inspired to commit terrible evil acts and violence,sacrificing their own life in the name of their God.