Sure you can. Hear that language you are talking and thinking in, can't have it without there being an other conscious being other than you.Dontaskme wrote:... So You can't know 'another' is conscious, ...
Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?
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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?
Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?
Arising_uk wrote: ↑Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:23 amSure you can. Hear that language you are talking and thinking in, can't have it without there being an other conscious being other than you.Dontaskme wrote:... So You can't know 'another' is conscious, ...
Consciousness doesn't know it's conscious. That would require it to split in two, into the knower and the known. It only becomes known on reflection.
Consciousness is not two, it's indivisible. Consciousness is like a mirror that cannot see itself, it can only reflect it self as other, it's same self.
And in order for the mirror to be able to reflect, it has to be empty so that it's reflection is seen. Consciousness therefore, is empty fullness.
The worls that appears outside of you is your mirror.
The belief in another consciousness is because there is a belief in your consciousness. No 'thing' has consciousness, there is only consciousness which is not a thing. There is no need for a belief in consciousness. Consciousness is without doubt or error. Any belief would just be an appearance within consciousness, a belief would be no thing. Consciousness and the contents of consciousness are not outside of consciousness. Consciousness is the boundless infinite container of everything...aka itself which is no thing.
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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?
Not heard of self-consciousness then?Dontaskme wrote:Consciousness doesn't know it's conscious. ...
Exactly but it needs memory.That would require it to split in two, into the knower and the known. ...
In other words, memory.It only becomes known on reflection. ...
True and there are lots of them.Consciousness is not two, it's indivisible. ...
True, it can have memory and a language and create an 'other' to reflect itself and others.Consciousness is like a mirror that cannot see itself, it can only reflect it self as other, it's same self. ...
Mirrors aren't empty?And in order for the mirror to be able to reflect, it has to be empty so that it's reflection is seen. ...
Or full emptiness.Consciousness therefore, is empty fullness. ...
In what sense?The worls that appears outside of you is your mirror. ...
Hear that language you are talking and thinking in? That lets you know that there is a consciousness out there other than your own. As a single consciousness could not develop and would not need such a thing.The belief in another consciousness is because there is a belief in your consciousness. ...
Depends what you call a 'thing', are you a thing?No 'thing' has consciousness, there is only consciousness which is not a thing. ...
Who believes in consciousness? I know I'm conscious and that's called being self-conscious.There is no need for a belief in consciousness. ...
About what? But I agree, it is without doubt or error that I am.Consciousness is without doubt or error. ...
No, it'd be a belief.Any belief would just be an appearance within consciousness, a belief would be no thing. ...
Well dur! But the external world and other consciousnesses certainly are.Consciousness and the contents of consciousness are not outside of consciousness. ...
Just a metaphysical assumption that the noumena is 'conscious' and as such has as much veracity as the world existing due to little pink and black fairies or even a 'God'.Consciousness is the boundless infinite container of everything...aka itself which is no thing.
Last edited by Arising_uk on Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?
As soon as you propose a procedure to differentiate "true" from "false" consciousness - you have invented a litmus test.
The problem is whether the 'false' consciousness can learn from its mistakes and adapt to pass the test in future, or worse yet - fail the test intentionally.
The problem is whether the 'false' consciousness can learn from its mistakes and adapt to pass the test in future, or worse yet - fail the test intentionally.
Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?
Other consciousnesses?Arising_uk wrote: ↑Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:24 pm But the external world and other consciousnesses certainly are.
Explain?
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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?
Ate you a consciouness? As I am.
Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?
If we are both consciousness, then consciousness is a verb.
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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?
Suppose that I am not. Then what?
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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?
For me? Then nothing. For you, confusion I'd guess but maybe not.TimeSeeker wrote:Suppose that I am not. Then what?
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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?
Well words can be both verbs and nouns so it's a noun when it names itself or another and a verb when it or another is doing the process.Dontaskme wrote: If we are both consciousness, then consciousness is a verb.
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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?
Great! That's two hypotheses right there. Confusion or no-confusion. 1 bit of uncertainty.Arising_uk wrote: ↑Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:02 pm For me? Then nothing. For you, confusion I'd guess but maybe not.
So if you can determine whether I am confused or not-confused then you ought to determine if I am conscious (like you)? Or am I misunderstanding your causal claim?
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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?
There is no consciousness as most usually think of it. What is commonly called consciousness all life on planet earth shares to varying degrees. That one type organism has greater faculties than another is of no real consequence in terms of the existence of consciousness. Consciousness is simply all our sensors, stored experiences, and choosing between them, so as to ensure continuance, as it all comes together, such that the limited amount of free will we have, can be employed.
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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?
Not really, it's just a statement that I think that if I was you and thought that I wasn't conscious I'd find certain things a bit confusing but like I said maybe not.TimeSeeker wrote:Great! That's two hypotheses right there. Confusion or no-confusion. 1 bit of uncertainty. ...
I don't think it's up to me to determine if you think you are conscious or not?So if you can determine whether I am confused or not-confused then you ought to determine if I am conscious (like you)?
Maybe, my claim is that if one is thinking and speaking in this language then one can safely assert that there is at least one other consciousness than oneself as I don't think such a language could be created by a singular consciousness.Or am I misunderstanding your causal claim?
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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?
That is a false dichotomy you know. Two different consciousness could still find a common language to communicate in.Arising_uk wrote: ↑Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:41 pmNot really, it's just a statement that I think that if I was you and thought that I wasn't conscious I'd find certain things a bit confusing but like I said maybe not.TimeSeeker wrote:Great! That's two hypotheses right there. Confusion or no-confusion. 1 bit of uncertainty. ...I don't think it's up to me to determine if you think you are conscious or not?So if you can determine whether I am confused or not-confused then you ought to determine if I am conscious (like you)?Maybe, my claim is that if one is thinking and speaking in this language then one can safely assert that there is at least one other consciousness than oneself as I don't think such a language could be created by a singular consciousness.Or am I misunderstanding your causal claim?
For example chimpanzees and gorillas can speak sign language to humans.
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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?
You'd have to explain how?TimeSeeker wrote:That is a false dichotomy you know. ...
How does that alter my claim as there are two consciousnesses and my claim is that if one is speaking and thinking in a language then one can know that there is another consciousness other than one's self as one consciousness cannot invent a language as why would it need to?Two different consciousness could still find a common language to communicate in. ...
See above.For example chimpanzees and gorillas can speak sign language to humans.