What is more authentic?

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Exan
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What is more authentic?

Post by Exan » Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:18 am

Cultural differences struck many travelers, coming to North America from Europe. One of the frequent observations is that Americans are much more confident and natural in maintaining all kind of communications, ranging from business ones to private. Jean Baudrillard in his book “America” noted: “Just look at this girl who serves you in the guest-room: she does so in total freedom, with a smile, without prejudice or pretentiousness. The situation is not an equal one, but she does not pretend to equality. Precisely the opposite of Sartre’s waiter, who is completely alienated from his representation and who only resolves the situation by calling on a theatrical metalanguage, by affecting in his gestures freedom and equality he does not really enjoy."
Another example can be eye contact: in many cultures, people can look into the other’s eyes just on rare occasions, but in North America, direct eye contact is necessary and unavoidable. So, who is more authentic: Baudrillard’s American girl or Sartre’s French waiter? An autistic child, not looking at you at all, or an ordinary kid, always keeping the direct eye contact? What form of cultural behavior is more authentic: the perfect final form, applied almost automatically and unconsciously, or the developing and becoming one, with the unknown outcome?

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Greta
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Re: What is more authentic?

Post by Greta » Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:36 am

They are each about as authentic as the other. Any differences would be minuscule, amplified in impression due to human sensitivity to the slightest subtle differences in other people.

Dalek Prime
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Re: What is more authentic?

Post by Dalek Prime » Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:55 pm

I behave differently depending on situation. And mood.... Montreal is more authentic than Toronto. Friendlier anyway.

Exan
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Re: What is more authentic?

Post by Exan » Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:21 pm

Dalek Prime wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:55 pm
Montreal is more authentic than Toronto.
It looks like French thinkers (Foucault, Deleuse, Derrida, Guattari) are not popular in North America.

Walker
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Re: What is more authentic?

Post by Walker » Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:07 pm

Exan wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:21 pm
Dalek Prime wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:55 pm
Montreal is more authentic than Toronto.
It looks like French thinkers (Foucault, Deleuse, Derrida, Guattari) are not popular in North America.
Non-eye contact is more authentic, as any ape with sense knows, and natural selection takes care of the foolish apes.

Both humans in France and humans in USA authentically and heavily rely on peripheral vision.

So do apes.

In the past, magazines and newspapers were the public eye-shields.

Today when in the world the eyes point downward to the electronic device in the hand, but not upward to the buildings tops like a rube come to the city.

In both the USA and France, and perhaps Canada, mindful eye contact always serves the purpose of intent.

Exan
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Re: What is more authentic?

Post by Exan » Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:07 pm

Walker wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:07 pm

In both the USA and France, and perhaps Canada, mindful eye contact always serves the purpose of intent.
Do you have a personal experience of communication in all these countries?
My impression is that the direct eye contact in North America has become a prevailing and unavoidable cultural norm.
I am not sure about France.
Levinas founded his ethics on the relation with the Other, and one of the basic elements was looking directly at the Other’s eyes. For Levinas it was the most challenging moral test – to open yourself toward the other's world. In North America
the direct eye contact has become a cultural norm.

Exan
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Re: What is more authentic?

Post by Exan » Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:13 pm

Walker wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:07 pm

Non-eye contact is more authentic, as any ape with sense knows, and natural selection takes care of the foolish apes.

Both humans in France and humans in USA authentically and heavily rely on peripheral vision.

So do apes.
What does "authenticity" mean for you?

Walker
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Re: What is more authentic?

Post by Walker » Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:29 pm

I have no special meaning of the word. How about you?

*

The eyes are windows to the soul.

You offer your eyes, you offer your soul.

Are you ready to do that, and are you safe behind all those layered and fortified defenses that fortunately you still have?

Here’s an angelic voice offering her soul, with mindful eye contact.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbQst5HZj6E

Exan
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Re: What is more authentic?

Post by Exan » Fri Aug 31, 2018 1:58 am

Walker wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:29 pm
I have no special meaning of the word. How about you?
We live in the time when the slogan “Be Yourself” has become an imperative. That means that we must be authentic. So, for me, authenticity is a way of becoming different of myself, not authentic at all.

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Greta
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Re: What is more authentic?

Post by Greta » Fri Aug 31, 2018 2:34 am

Walker wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:29 pm
The eyes are windows to the soul.

You offer your eyes, you offer your soul.
Oh, I think posture and mouth expressions provide almost as much information. Eyes provide the fine details.

There was a documentary about the large mega-culture of Congo chimps held together by an unusual leader, who was not a dominant. Unlike most chimps, the whites of his eyes were visible. The result was that the other chimps knew where he was looking and thus he was at a disadvantage.

So he ended up grooming other apes. Eventually he was highly popular and fell under the protection of all the dominant chimps. This resulted in him being the (peaceful and gentle) leader of the largest known chimp troupe. It reached about double the numbers of most chimp groups before the population pressure resulted in splintering, the first sign being the treatment of other in-group members as outsiders.

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Lacewing
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Re: What is more authentic?

Post by Lacewing » Fri Aug 31, 2018 3:41 am

Exan wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 1:58 am
We live in the time when the slogan “Be Yourself” has become an imperative.
I think there can be a lot of ways to "be yourself", and they're not all completely authentic. For example, deceptiveness and manipulation can be within anyone's capability/character, it may be a pattern for them, and they're just being themselves to do such things. So would that be authentic (for them)? Maybe on some level.

I think of authenticity more as being truthful and open about who oneself is essentially being in any given moment... rather than, say, acting from habits/ideas that one attaches themselves to. One approach/quality is more true and connected... and the other is more detached and a "show" of oneself.

Sharing authenticity is a treasure. It can be like hearing a clear bell against the muddled roar of other interactions.

Exan
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Re: What is more authentic?

Post by Exan » Fri Aug 31, 2018 12:47 pm

Lacewing wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 3:41 am

I think of authenticity more as being truthful and open about who oneself is essentially being in any given moment... rather than, say, acting from habits/ideas that one attaches themselves to.
I know so many people who do their best to open themselves - to find and show what they have behind "habits/ideas that one attaches themselves to" -and, as the result, there will be other, deeper patterns found...That usually happens during psychotherapy.

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Lacewing
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Re: What is more authentic?

Post by Lacewing » Fri Aug 31, 2018 3:11 pm

Exan wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 12:47 pm
Lacewing wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 3:41 am

I think of authenticity more as being truthful and open about who oneself is essentially being in any given moment... rather than, say, acting from habits/ideas that one attaches themselves to.
I know so many people who do their best to open themselves - to find and show what they have behind "habits/ideas that one attaches themselves to" -and, as the result, there will be other, deeper patterns found...That usually happens during psychotherapy.
It makes sense that there are many levels of being and understanding. That's why it's humorous when we think we've "arrived" or when we think we see/understand the definitive "what is". Like being on a journey, and each time we crest a hill we proclaim, "I've reached the pinnacle!" No... there is no pinnacle. :D That's how it seems to me, anyway... after living many lives within this one. There's always more -- that just makes sense. I'm guessing that when we think we've arrived, we're stuck somehow. The point that there's no definitive pinnacle is no reason not to continually explore and expand one's understanding and skills along the journey, simply for manifesting and enjoying a better journey. Doing that is probably what helps to pop the bubbles that open up into larger worlds.

Walker
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Re: What is more authentic?

Post by Walker » Fri Aug 31, 2018 4:28 pm

Greta wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 2:34 am
Walker wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:29 pm
The eyes are windows to the soul.

You offer your eyes, you offer your soul.
Oh, I think posture and mouth expressions provide almost as much information. Eyes provide the fine details.

There was a documentary about the large mega-culture of Congo chimps held together by an unusual leader, who was not a dominant. Unlike most chimps, the whites of his eyes were visible. The result was that the other chimps knew where he was looking and thus he was at a disadvantage.

So he ended up grooming other apes. Eventually he was highly popular and fell under the protection of all the dominant chimps. This resulted in him being the (peaceful and gentle) leader of the largest known chimp troupe. It reached about double the numbers of most chimp groups before the population pressure resulted in splintering, the first sign being the treatment of other in-group members as outsiders.
Love that ape story.

Exan
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Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:21 am

Re: What is more authentic?

Post by Exan » Fri Aug 31, 2018 5:58 pm

Lacewing wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 3:11 pm

It makes sense that there are many levels of being and understanding. That's why it's humorous when we think we've "arrived" or when we think we see/understand the definitive "what is".
Many people try to achieve the real authenticity by practicing ancient ways of life and religion such as Yoga, Buddhism, etc. For many cases, it can be easily found that there is no more than imitation, pretension for authenticity. Yet, one can believe that the hard-working practitioner is able to reach the state of Enlightenment. Does it mean that the enlightened mind is the authentic one? And, if so, is authenticity an universal and the only goal of life?

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