God is an Impossibility

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Veritas Aequitas
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God is an Impossibility

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:50 am

Here is an argument, Why God is an Impossibility to be real.

There are two types of perfection for philosophical consideration, i.e.
  • 1. Relative perfection
    2. Absolute perfection
1. Relative perfection
If one's answers in an objective tests are ALL correct that is a 100% perfect score.
Perfect scores 10/10 or 7/7 used to be given to extra-ordinary performance in diving, gymnastics, skating, and the likes. So perfection from the relative perspective can happen and exist within man-made systems of empirically-based measurements.

2. Absolute perfection
Absolute perfection is an idea, ideal, and it is only a thought that can arise from pure reason and never the empirical at all.
Absolute perfection is an impossibility in the empirical, thus exist only theoretically.
Examples are perfect circle, square, triangle, etc.

Generally, perfection is attributed to God. Any god with less than perfect attributes would be subjected to being inferior to another's god.
As such, God has to be absolutely perfect which is the ontological god, i.e. god is a Being than which no greater can be conceived.


So,
  • P1. Absolute perfection is an impossibility to be real
    P2. God, imperatively must be absolutely perfect
    C. Therefore God is an impossibility to be real.

Can any theist or non-theist counter the above?
Last edited by Veritas Aequitas on Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

Veritas Aequitas
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Re: God is an Impossibility

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:59 am

Despite God as only an idea [ideal entity] is an impossibility to be real, theists will natural 'reason' God to be 'real' based on self-deception due to some subliminal compulsion to deal with an inherent unavoidable existential crisis.

My point is humanity must deal with the real existential crisis psychologically i.e. the idea of God [an impossibility] rather than deny and suppress it.

Since the idea of God emerged into human consciousness as a balm/crutch to relieve the existential Angst, the pros of theism has outweigh its cons [the terrible evil deeds as inspired by the supposedly texts from a 'believed-to-be-real' God to be acted upon].
However, the trend currently is the cons of theism are slowly outweighing the pros [psychological relief from Angst], thus we need to address the reality behind theism and deal with the related psychological root causes.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: God is an Impossibility

Post by Immanuel Can » Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:30 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:50 am
Can any theist or non-theist counter the above?
As worded at the moment, it's fairly straightforward to do so, actually.

The premise: "Absolute perfection is an impossibility in the empirical," could be 100% correct, yet it does not conduce to the conclusion "Therefore, absolute perfection is an impossibility to be real." This is because "empirical" and "real" are not the same terms. Hence, you have in that argument a fallacy of the shifting middle term, or equivocation.

"Empirical" is defined as, "based on what is seen or experienced" (Cambridge). That pretty much limits it to the physical realm. So your premise is, "Absolute perfection is impossible in the physical (empirical) world." To put it wryly, the argument assumes we can get God into a beaker. It requires us to assume that that whatever the Supreme Being is, He must be an item in the set, "empirical things."

But, by definition, the Supreme Being is the Creator of "empirical things," not a member of that set. Any Theist thinks so. So the argument dies on that basic premise. It will need a better premise.

Make sense?

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attofishpi
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Re: God is an Impossibility

Post by attofishpi » Sun Aug 05, 2018 2:08 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:50 am
Here is an argument, Why God is an Impossibility to be real.

There are two types of perfection for philosophical consideration, i.e.
  • 1. Relative perfection
    2. Absolute perfection
1. Relative perfection
If one's answers in an objective tests are ALL correct that is a 100% perfect score.
Perfect scores 10/10 or 7/7 used to be given to extra-ordinary performance in diving, gymnastics, skating, and the likes. So perfection from the relative perspective can happen and exist within man-made systems of empirically-based measurements.

2. Absolute perfection
Absolute perfection is an idea, ideal, and it is only a thought that can arise from pure reason and never the empirical at all.
Absolute perfection is an impossibility in the empirical, thus exist only theoretically.
Examples are perfect circle, square, triangle, etc.

Generally, perfection is attributed to God. Any god with less than perfect attributes would be subjected to being inferior to another's god.
As such, God has to be absolutely perfect which is the ontological god, i.e. god is a Being than which no greater can be conceived.


So,
  • P1. Absolute perfection is an impossibility to be real
    P2. God, imperatively must be absolutely perfect
    C. Therefore God is an impossibility to be real.

Can any theist or non-theist counter the above?
Apparently God stated it is a jealous being...IS THAT PERFECT? And where are you getting this idea that God is perfect from - I'll tell you where ...man...perhaps a PASTOR ROTSAP.

seeds
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Re: God is an Impossibility

Post by seeds » Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:09 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:50 am
P1. Absolute perfection is an impossibility to be real
P2. God, imperatively must be absolutely perfect
C. Therefore God is an impossibility to be real.

Can any theist or non-theist counter the above?
As was pointed out by atto, your problem lies in the false assumption implicit in P2 of your syllogism.

God does not have to meet some ideal form of “perfection.”

He (or she, or it, or whatever term you wish to use) simply needs to be in possession of the attributes necessary for creating a universe.

The idea of God needing to be “perfect” falls within the same category of false assumptions that insist that in order to qualify for the title of “God,” an entity must also be in possession of impossible levels of omniscience and omnibenevolence, for example,...

...all of which is just human-contrived nonsense.
_______
Last edited by seeds on Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: God is an Impossibility

Post by Immanuel Can » Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:31 pm

seeds wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:09 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:50 am
P1. Absolute perfection is an impossibility to be real
P2. God, imperatively must be absolutely perfect
C. Therefore God is an impossibility to be real.

Can any theist or non-theist counter the above?
As was pointed out by ICan...
_______
Not quite the point of critique I offered. I was more interested in P1, in light of the prior supposition in the earlier argument.

seeds
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Re: God is an Impossibility

Post by seeds » Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:51 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:31 pm
seeds wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:09 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:50 am
P1. Absolute perfection is an impossibility to be real
P2. God, imperatively must be absolutely perfect
C. Therefore God is an impossibility to be real.

Can any theist or non-theist counter the above?
As was pointed out by ICan...
_______
Not quite the point of critique I offered. I was more interested in P1, in light of the prior supposition in the earlier argument.
Sorry, my mistake (now corrected in the original post).
_______

Dubious
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Re: God is an Impossibility

Post by Dubious » Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:03 pm

It's impossible for philosophy or science to prove anything either way about god's existence. For philosophy it's merely a fun exercise, nothing more; for science a matter of total indifference.

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Re: God is an Impossibility

Post by -1- » Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:25 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:50 am
Here is an argument, Why God is an Impossibility to be real.

There are two types of perfection for philosophical consideration, i.e.
  • 1. Relative perfection
    2. Absolute perfection
1. Relative perfection
If one's answers in an objective tests are ALL correct that is a 100% perfect score.
Perfect scores 10/10 or 7/7 used to be given to extra-ordinary performance in diving, gymnastics, skating, and the likes. So perfection from the relative perspective can happen and exist within man-made systems of empirically-based measurements.

2. Absolute perfection
Absolute perfection is an idea, ideal, and it is only a thought that can arise from pure reason and never the empirical at all.
Absolute perfection is an impossibility in the empirical, thus exist only theoretically.
Examples are perfect circle, square, triangle, etc.

Generally, perfection is attributed to God. Any god with less than perfect attributes would be subjected to being inferior to another's god.
As such, God has to be absolutely perfect which is the ontological god, i.e. god is a Being than which no greater can be conceived.


So,
  • P1. Absolute perfection is an impossibility to be real
    P2. God, imperatively must be absolutely perfect
    C. Therefore God is an impossibility to be real.

Can any theist or non-theist counter the above?
There are tons of attributes that are attributed to God that are impossible.

There are two solutions to this type of reasoning:

1. You insist that god have impossible characteristics. This way you deny the existence of that god.

2. You admit that god does not possess impossible characteristics: God is Everywhere, god is all good, god is all powerful, and here, god is perfect, and then you are logically allowed to believe in god.

Your proof does not prove there is no god; it shows that god does not have all the characteristics that stupid theists attribute to him; and it allows the existence of a god which god, smart theists will admit, does not have all the attributes normally attached to him.

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Re: God is an Impossibility

Post by -1- » Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:29 pm

Dubious wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:03 pm
It's impossible for philosophy or science to prove anything either way about god's existence. For philosophy it's merely a fun exercise, nothing more; for science a matter of total indifference.
This is a blanket statement, without a proof or evidence. It does not take the original post into consideration, and this blanket statement does not make any critical points about the original post. You are saying "apples" when an orange was shown to you.

The evidence you may quote is that there exists to this point in time no proof either way. However, this does not negate that a proof will be created at one point in the future. (For instance, by observing a miracle which can be repeatedly duplicated, and which does not follow natural laws; or else, by creating an argument that renders the existence of god absolutely impossible.)

Dubious
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Re: God is an Impossibility

Post by Dubious » Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:51 pm

-1- wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:29 pm
Dubious wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:03 pm
It's impossible for philosophy or science to prove anything either way about god's existence. For philosophy it's merely a fun exercise, nothing more; for science a matter of total indifference.
This is a blanket statement, without a proof or evidence. It does not take the original post into consideration, and this blanket statement does not make any critical points about the original post. You are saying "apples" when an orange was shown to you.

The evidence you may quote is that there exists to this point in time no proof either way. However, this does not negate that a proof will be created at one point in the future. (For instance, by observing a miracle which can be repeatedly duplicated, and which does not follow natural laws; or else, by creating an argument that renders the existence of god absolutely impossible.)
The ONLY proof possible regarding god is one that proves Itself to exist completely extraneous to any of our attempts which amount to nothing more than engineering syllogisms by invoking arguments to "prove" a prior intent. We do it all the time to manufacture credibility for most of the beliefs we hold giving them, at least, an aura of truth.

In any event proof of god as being or not being is beyond the jurisdiction of any logic known to man.

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HexHammer
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Re: God is an Impossibility

Post by HexHammer » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:23 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:50 am
Here is an argument, Why God is an Impossibility to be real.

There are two types of perfection for philosophical consideration, i.e.
  • 1. Relative perfection
    2. Absolute perfection
..yadda yadda ..bla bla ..bla!
This is pure babble and ravings.

You can't judge someone you don't know, someone you never met. It's humans fucking up, not god.

I cursed the name of god and got 4 black cats in less than 1 h, so I KNOW he's real!
I've seen all my enemies being punished, whenever in dire need of money I got loads.

Veritas Aequitas
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Re: God is an Impossibility

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Mon Aug 06, 2018 3:39 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:30 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:50 am
Can any theist or non-theist counter the above?
As worded at the moment, it's fairly straightforward to do so, actually.

The premise: "Absolute perfection is an impossibility in the empirical," could be 100% correct, yet it does not conduce to the conclusion "Therefore, absolute perfection is an impossibility to be real." This is because "empirical" and "real" are not the same terms. Hence, you have in that argument a fallacy of the shifting middle term, or equivocation.

"Empirical" is defined as, "based on what is seen or experienced" (Cambridge). That pretty much limits it to the physical realm. So your premise is, "Absolute perfection is impossible in the physical (empirical) world." To put it wryly, the argument assumes we can get God into a beaker. It requires us to assume that that whatever the Supreme Being is, He must be an item in the set, "empirical things."

But, by definition, the Supreme Being is the Creator of "empirical things," not a member of that set. Any Theist thinks so. So the argument dies on that basic premise. It will need a better premise.

Make sense?
There are more details to the premises I have not covered.

There are many forms of God, i.e.
  • 1. The empirical God
    2. The empirically possible God
    3. The pantheistic or panentheistic in everywhere God
    4. The transcendental God
    5. The transcendental Absolute Supreme Being.
1. The empirical God
My OP address the obvious, i.e. the empirical God.
The majority of Abrahamic theists and other common theists [appx 80% of theists] generally believe their God to be somehow empirical from an anthropomorphic to the minutest element, e.g. energy or god particle which these theists are hopeful [for an impossibility] their God will be verified by Science one day.

Why they expect their God to be empirical is when they expect their God to answer their empirical prayers and various empirical responses [miracles, etc.].
One point is when one expect one's God to perform empirical things or miracles, that God has to be empirically based.
It is a contradiction and illusory to conflate two different senses in term of existence at the same time, i.e. empirical as the same time is transcendental. [need further discussion on this].


2. The empirically possible God
Early on in the dark ages when the Earth was not fully explored, theists would claim their God is an empirical entity somewhere in other side of the horizon no one has gone before.
When the Earth was fully explored and they become more learned, they shifted to the claim, their God is a bearded man or some extraterrestrial empirical being some where out there in the Universe.
This is the empirically possible God.
I can accept the claim for an empirically [100%] possible God, but one can only present it as a speculative theory until one can bring in empirical evidence to prove and justify its existence.
This claim is like any scientific theory or science fiction.

But the point is an empirical God cannot be a perfect God.
If a God is not a perfect God, then that empirical God will be an inferior God to the extent can be commanded to kiss the arse of another possible more superior God or the ontological God, i.e. the Sense of Inferiority that need to be overcome.
This is happening with SOME Muslims who believe their Allah is the ONE Greatest God over all entities.

4. Transcendental God [beyond the empirical].
The above sense of inferiority lead to the thought evolution of a greater idea [not concept] of a one-up God until a ceiling limit is reached to arrive an ontological God. Note Descartes, St. Anselm, etc.
The Ontological God is a God than which no greater can be 'conceived' [idealized].
Kant proved the idea of God is always defaulted to the ontological God.
At the same time, Kant proved the transcendental ontological God is a resulting illusion.

5. The transcendental Absolute Supreme Being.
The transcendental Absolute Supreme Being is the Ontological God mentioned above.

3. The pantheistic or panentheistic in everywhere God
The pantheistic or panentheistic in everywhere God is claimed by SOME to be fully empirical that exists everywhere empirically thus faces the limitation of empiricism.
Generallly the pantheistic or panentheistic God is claimed to be both empirically within and transcendental [transcendent].
The pantheistic or panentheistic God that straddles the empirical and transcendental is constraint by the limitations of the empirical and transcendental explained above.

Thus you can see from the above;
  • If one's God is empirical which 80% of theists believe, then such a God is impossible to be real because God by default has to be absolutely perfect.

    If God it is a pantheistic or panentheistic God that straddle the empirical and transcendental, it is constraint by the empirical and transcendental limitations.

    If God is claimed to be transcendental, then it is an illusion, thus impossible to be real.
From all the above, the idea [not concept] of God cannot be empirically real as believed by 80% of theists and God is an illusion if believed to be transcendental.


I have no issue if theists understand and recognize [qualify] their theistic belief and conclusion is an illusion, i.e. a perhaps critical necessarily self-deception to relieve an inherent existential crisis.

Whilst the majority of humans need God as a psychological crutch and cannot do without it
[unless there are convincing alternatives], theists need to understand [this is the toughest challenge] the idea of God is a resulting illusion of thought that has its pros and cons.
The significance is the cons of theism are outweighing its pros as move toward the future.
Last edited by Veritas Aequitas on Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:05 am, edited 2 times in total.

Veritas Aequitas
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Re: God is an Impossibility

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Mon Aug 06, 2018 3:40 am

I believe my above posts answers most of the questions raised by other posters.
I will address some points.

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Re: God is an Impossibility

Post by -1- » Mon Aug 06, 2018 3:42 am

HexHammer wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:23 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:50 am
Here is an argument, Why God is an Impossibility to be real.

There are two types of perfection for philosophical consideration, i.e.
  • 1. Relative perfection
    2. Absolute perfection
..yadda yadda ..bla bla ..bla!
This is pure babble and ravings.

You can't judge someone you don't know, someone you never met. It's humans fucking up, not god.

I cursed the name of god and got 4 black cats in less than 1 h, so I KNOW he's real!
I've seen all my enemies being punished, whenever in dire need of money I got loads.
You think this is a question of personal bias? Have you ever heard of a priori truths?

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