Proof for Consciousness existing outside our brains

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Dontaskme
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Re: Proof for Consciousness existing outside our brains

Post by Dontaskme » Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:03 am

Harbal wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:59 am
Dontaskme wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:42 am
This is the dream, the dream is all there is.
Apart from consciousness and concepts, of course. The list of what there is seems to be growing.
Yes, what you feed normally grows.

There is just everything and no thing, a self sustaining feedback loop.

Ramu
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Re: Proof for Consciousness existing outside our brains

Post by Ramu » Sun Jul 22, 2018 10:15 pm

The reason you won't prove consciousness is produced by the brain is because the brain and neuroscience is occurring IN consciousness. Metaphysically there is no brain.

Greylorn Ell
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Re: Proof for Consciousness existing outside our brains

Post by Greylorn Ell » Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:14 am

Ramu wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:19 pm
Consciousness is non-local. Drop this whole materialist paradigm. Its not occurring in a "brain". Everything is occurring in Consciousness. You ARE consciousness itself. It is the "container" for everything. Time occurs within it, but consciousness itself transcends time. It can be experienced directly as the True Self from a non-dual paradigm. ;))
What happens to whatever passes in you for consciousness after your body's physiological death?

Greylorn Ell
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Re: Proof for Consciousness existing outside our brains

Post by Greylorn Ell » Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:18 am

Harbal wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:59 am
Dontaskme wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:42 am
This is the dream, the dream is all there is.
Apart from consciousness and concepts, of course. The list of what there is seems to be growing.
Would you kindly share this "list" with someone who at this point thinks you do not know squat about anything?

Greylorn Ell
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Re: Proof for Consciousness existing outside our brains

Post by Greylorn Ell » Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:22 am

Ramu wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:19 pm
Consciousness is non-local. Drop this whole materialist paradigm. Its not occurring in a "brain". Everything is occurring in Consciousness. You ARE consciousness itself. It is the "container" for everything. Time occurs within it, but consciousness itself transcends time. It can be experienced directly as the True Self from a non-dual paradigm. ;))
What is this "non-dual paradigm?" Explain it please, from a mental state free of chemical additives.

Greylorn Ell
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Re: Proof for Consciousness existing outside our brains

Post by Greylorn Ell » Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:34 am

Dontaskme wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:26 pm
The brain is actually not inside the skull at all,the brain is a concept of consciousness,and concepts are invisible ideas the mind takes to be literal things in and of themselves.There is no person inside a body, there is only consciousness, and consciousness is not inside a brain which is just a concept. Consciousness is not in a concept, a concept is in consciousness.

What we are essentially is without beginning or end. There is no inside or outside of THIS.
The animating energy that powers and appears as the body IS without beginning or end.Bodies appear and disappear in it. All concepts are known things of consciousness which is not-a-thing....relatively speaking for the purpose of knowledge...of which there is nothing outside of this conceptual knowledge.

We, aka consciousness are literally walking, living, breathing, and having our being through our brain all the time, which is non-local, the brain is everywhere, it's when we go to the shop, or the park, or to school, or to work, it's when we are interacting with nature and wildlife or people, all this is the brain braining.
The organ inside the skull known as the brain is just a biological computer, a data receiver and processer of information continuely reporting it's surround, that's everywhere and nowhere, being neither inside or outside of any thing, for there is no boundary or edge to consciousness. Consciousness is the invisible visible.. The Real self.

Consciousness is an ocean of information and is definitely not in the brain, no more than the music is inside a radio or a teleivision programme is inside a tv set.
What would you do if you discovered, as have many individuals, that you were experiencing disturbing mental experiences which were symptomatic of a tumor within your brain? Would you visit a neurosurgeon or even a neurologist, knowing that these people mistakenly believe that your brain is within your skull?

If so, why? If not, why not?

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Harbal
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Re: Proof for Consciousness existing outside our brains

Post by Harbal » Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:56 am

Greylorn Ell wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:18 am

Would you kindly share this "list" with someone who at this point thinks you do not know squat about anything?
Sorry, I can't, it's a secret list.

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Greta
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Re: Proof for Consciousness existing outside our brains

Post by Greta » Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:07 am

Greylorn Ell wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:18 am
Harbal wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:59 am
Dontaskme wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:42 am
This is the dream, the dream is all there is.
Apart from consciousness and concepts, of course. The list of what there is seems to be growing.
Would you kindly share this "list" with someone who at this point thinks you do not know squat about anything?
He's referring to DAM claiming that there is nothing - that nothing exists and this is all an illusion. Then, with probing, he finds there is naught but consciousness. Some more probing and now the story is that there is nothing but consciousness and concepts. As he noted, the list is growing. Next we are hoping to add three French hens, or maybe five golden rings?

Otherwise, I agree with your criticisms because there's plenty of over-certain suggestions being made about that which no certainty is possible. Basically it's a failure of intellectual rigour and discipline. It's easy enough to add qualifiers when airing one's speculative views about the great unknown questions of existence but some prefer to game their ideas as promotion.

For the record, my intuition tells me that the Earth and other complex cosmic bodies could quite possibly be conscious, but a different kind of mind to animal consciousness. However, proving an intuition is a whole other matter. Even the ancients knew that intuition wasn't enough, that we need to question ourselves as well as others.

Somehow that lesson seems to be getting lost in this climate of "fake news", where bluster and gamesmanship are more highly regarded than hard-won knowledge.

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Dontaskme
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Re: Proof for Consciousness existing outside our brains

Post by Dontaskme » Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:49 am

Greylorn Ell wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:34 am
What would you do if you discovered, as have many individuals, that you were experiencing disturbing mental experiences which were symptomatic of a tumor within your brain? Would you visit a neurosurgeon or even a neurologist, knowing that these people mistakenly believe that your brain is within your skull?

If so, why? If not, why not?
Any experience is a feeling felt or an image seen, and so while any sensation, via the senses, aka an experience is an apparent effect of consciousness, an appearance of that alone.

Consciousness is not an experience..because it's non-local...that is what's being pointed to here. Consciousness is invisible. It's not inside a brain or outside of a brain, it is the brain...''brain'' being a concept of invisible consciousness.

A mass on the brain is known as the concept ''tumor'' ... and while the concept can be seen via the image, the seer remains invisible...
A tumor maybe the cause of disturbing distrupting images upon the screen of consciousness, or it maybe the cause of unpleasant sensations felt, but all this sensation is invisible, a sensation cannot be seen. It maybe felt, but then can the feeler be seen, no it can't because it's all consciousness.

What's being discussed here is invisible. What the mind does ..is that it says...I have a tumor, or I am feeling the effects of this tumor...but, can this I be seen? ...no is the answer...can the eye see itself? no it can't...why, because there is only self aka consciousness one without a second. So although it appears to be I that is feeling sensation be it disturbing unpleasant or sensationally pleasurable...there is no I being the I...there is only the I

Since any effect is a product of consciousness only which is the causeless cause...aka illusory, in that although it appears to be happening to a someone inside this body..there is no actual someone inside the body...the someone is a phantom.

All images seen are images of the imageless, all sensations are felt yes, but the feeler is the sensation in the same instant indivisibly one non-local consciousness here now happening to no one. That it appears to be happening to a local I here, and not to the I overthere ..is also a concept of the one consciousness.

Any time consciousness becomes aware of itself via sensation it gives birth to itself only, via the mind of concepts..this is the illusion, the mind of language, aka duality...consciousness itself is not an illusion it is nondual.

.

And as per ususal, Greta continues to promote her theory about knowledge is something to be earned ..her ''hard earned knowledge'' idea is a myth, in that there is no one here to earn it. It's not for sale, it's free because it belongs to no one aka every one, it has no copyright since no one wrote it. All knowledge does is inform the illusory nature of I know something. Because any knowing does not belong to a separate localised knower...there is only non-local ''knowing'' which is unknowable.

And that is what is being discussed here, I'm on this forum to put straight the crooked. And to teach real philosophy.

.

Ramu
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Re: Proof for Consciousness existing outside our brains

Post by Ramu » Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:27 pm

Greylorn Ell wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:22 am
Ramu wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:19 pm
Consciousness is non-local. Drop this whole materialist paradigm. Its not occurring in a "brain". Everything is occurring in Consciousness. You ARE consciousness itself. It is the "container" for everything. Time occurs within it, but consciousness itself transcends time. It can be experienced directly as the True Self from a non-dual paradigm. ;))
What is this "non-dual paradigm?" Explain it please, from a mental state free of chemical additives.
The non-dual paradigm essentially means there is just One. You are Consciousness itself. There is nothing beyond consciousness. It is itself First Order. Everything else is Second Order including body, concepts, brain , neuroscience etc. The materialist thinks consciousness is an epiphenomenon of brain. However if you look at the metaphysics of your assumption that you are a "brain" and that everything you experience is occurring in a brain, it doesn't make any sense. The existence of a brain is a mere metaphysical concept which you take for granted.

Dalek Prime
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Re: Proof for Consciousness existing outside our brains

Post by Dalek Prime » Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:43 am

Greylorn Ell wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:14 am
Ramu wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:19 pm
Consciousness is non-local. Drop this whole materialist paradigm. Its not occurring in a "brain". Everything is occurring in Consciousness. You ARE consciousness itself. It is the "container" for everything. Time occurs within it, but consciousness itself transcends time. It can be experienced directly as the True Self from a non-dual paradigm. ;))
What happens to whatever passes in you for consciousness after your body's physiological death?
Poof!

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Dontaskme
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Re: Proof for Consciousness existing outside our brains

Post by Dontaskme » Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:25 am

Greylorn Ell wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:14 am
What happens to whatever passes in you for consciousness after your body's physiological death?
Nothing ever happened. Including death.

The body has never been alive, so how can it die...birth and death are concepts, and concepts are illusions, seeing through the illusion of the concept of I..is freedom from the bondage of birth and death, aka fear of losing.

No one ever loses, everything wins...because there is only everything which is not a thing.

.

Greylorn Ell
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Re: Proof for Consciousness existing outside our brains

Post by Greylorn Ell » Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:35 pm

Ramu wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:27 pm
Greylorn Ell wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:22 am
Ramu wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:19 pm
Consciousness is non-local. Drop this whole materialist paradigm. Its not occurring in a "brain". Everything is occurring in Consciousness. You ARE consciousness itself. It is the "container" for everything. Time occurs within it, but consciousness itself transcends time. It can be experienced directly as the True Self from a non-dual paradigm. ;))
What is this "non-dual paradigm?" Explain it please, from a mental state free of chemical additives.
The non-dual paradigm essentially means there is just One. You are Consciousness itself. There is nothing beyond consciousness. It is itself First Order. Everything else is Second Order including body, concepts, brain , neuroscience etc. The materialist thinks consciousness is an epiphenomenon of brain. However if you look at the metaphysics of your assumption that you are a "brain" and that everything you experience is occurring in a brain, it doesn't make any sense. The existence of a brain is a mere metaphysical concept which you take for granted.
Ramu,
You are presenting a meaningless assertion "You are consciousness itself," as if it was a coherent, sensible paradigm. Before promoting your simplistic assertion the more, consider first looking up the meaning of paradigm. Then, instead of watching television, read "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions," by Thomas Kuhn, which explains the nature of paradigms in depth, and offers other insights essential to anyone taking philosophy seriously.

Greylorn Ell
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Re: Proof for Consciousness existing outside our brains

Post by Greylorn Ell » Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:43 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:25 am
Greylorn Ell wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:14 am
What happens to whatever passes in you for consciousness after your body's physiological death?
Nothing ever happened. Including death.

The body has never been alive, so how can it die...birth and death are concepts, and concepts are illusions, seeing through the illusion of the concept of I..is freedom from the bondage of birth and death, aka fear of losing.

No one ever loses, everything wins...because there is only everything which is not a thing.
You've established yourself as an intellectually dysfunctional person, worthy of future responses from idiots and pinheads only. I'm certain that this "philosophy" forum will not deprive you of correspondents who think at your level.
Greylorn

Greylorn Ell
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Re: Proof for Consciousness existing outside our brains

Post by Greylorn Ell » Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:17 pm

Greta wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:07 am
Greylorn Ell wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:18 am
Harbal wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:59 am
Apart from consciousness and concepts, of course. The list of what there is seems to be growing.
Would you kindly share this "list" with someone who at this point thinks you do not know squat about anything?
He's referring to DAM claiming that there is nothing - that nothing exists and this is all an illusion. Then, with probing, he finds there is naught but consciousness. Some more probing and now the story is that there is nothing but consciousness and concepts. As he noted, the list is growing. Next we are hoping to add three French hens, or maybe five golden rings?

Otherwise, I agree with your criticisms because there's plenty of over-certain suggestions being made about that which no certainty is possible. Basically it's a failure of intellectual rigour and discipline. It's easy enough to add qualifiers when airing one's speculative views about the great unknown questions of existence but some prefer to game their ideas as promotion.

For the record, my intuition tells me that the Earth and other complex cosmic bodies could quite possibly be conscious, but a different kind of mind to animal consciousness. However, proving an intuition is a whole other matter. Even the ancients knew that intuition wasn't enough, that we need to question ourselves as well as others.

Somehow that lesson seems to be getting lost in this climate of "fake news", where bluster and gamesmanship are more highly regarded than hard-won knowledge.
You give Hairball more credit than he warrants. He's clearly not studied Descartes, and never will. He's a long way from putting so much as two turtle doves on the table.

Personally, I don't think that "intellectual rigour and discipline" exist. (I worked in high-tech engineering, astronomy, physics, and even a bit of biochemical development.) Real scientists are just a bunch of young men having fun with idea exploration, and mostly winging it. The IR & D bullshit only comes into play when they go to school and come away with a Ph.D.

Your insights regarding the potential of cosmic-body consciousness fit my personal theories. If you are like the new-agers who've promoted consciousness notions, you'll probably think that animals are consciousness, and if so, I disagree-- with occasional non-general exceptions.

What is your best definition of consciousness?

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