Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Dubious
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Dubious » Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:53 pm

Nick_A wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:38 pm

Now you want to complain about Gurdjieff. Why? What do you have against Gurdjieff?
Gurdjieff was a piece of fucking shit (pardon my language) that even Ouspenskii, his most famous disciple, found hard to take.

Nick_A
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Nick_A » Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:06 pm

Dubious wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:53 pm
Nick_A wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:38 pm

Now you want to complain about Gurdjieff. Why? What do you have against Gurdjieff?
Gurdjieff was a piece of fucking shit (pardon my language) that even Ouspenskii, his most famous disciple, found hard to take.
I'm curious as to why you believe this. What did you read or hear that inspires such a violent opinion? I'm familiar with some of his basic ideas and don't understand why you would react so violently.

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Greta
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Greta » Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:40 pm

Nick_A wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:38 pm
I don’t complain about secularism.
Really???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

How can you lie so outrageously and seemingly without shame?

seeds
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by seeds » Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:07 am

Nick_A wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:50 pm
Seeds

What do you think is meant by this parable?

Matthew 13:24-30 New King James Version (NKJV)

The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares
24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” ’ ”
First of all, as I have already pointed out from the perspective of Buddhist mythology...

...what I think of the parable is that it is nothing more than an aspect of the etchings inscribed on the riggings of a temporary raft that helps to carry humans across the waters of earthly life – a raft that will be abandoned upon the shore of death.

Secondly, as the parable pertains to your own bigoted and nihilistic theory, aside from maybe one or two viable stalks of wheat, the entire field would be tares – all destined for burning.

Thirdly, what I also think is that your use of the parable is just another instance of you employing yet another attention diverting smokescreen to obscure the fact that...

...even though your theory diametrically opposes the core precepts of Christianity, you nevertheless have no problem in trying to get others to believe that the Bible actually supports your claims.

And Lastly, this recent exchange you had with Greta...
Greta wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:45 am
It's very hard to know what the heck you are complaining about with the world and "secularism"....
Nick_A wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:38 pm
Why are you so obsessed with complaining? I don’t complain about secularism.
...is so utterly and mind-blowingly false and disingenuous that it pretty much says everything that anyone needs to know about the integrity of your statements.

Nick, even though our debates are oftentimes heated and contentious, I honestly do not mean to be hurtful or mean-spirited toward you, for I truly believe that you have a good heart and good intentions.

However, if that last bit isn’t the mother of all whoppers ever stated on this forum, then I don’t know what is. :D
_______
Last edited by seeds on Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Greta
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Greta » Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:19 am

Nick_A wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:38 pm
Greta
It's very hard to know what the heck you are complaining about with the world and "secularism". If secularism includes all of secular society plus, seemingly, the vast majority of religions, well, Nick maybe you need to lower your expectations? Maybe you, like Gurdjeiff's followers, must form small, committed groups to grow while the "weeds" (ie. regular people) around continue to fester chaotically?
Why are you so obsessed with complaining? I don’t complain about secularism. The world or Plato’s cave is as it is because of the human condition in relation to universal laws. The problem is recognizing it for what it is. What is there to complain about? That would be like complaining about high tide. My concern is for the young who are attracted to eros and are being killed inside by the effects of secularism. Why mindlessly complain as you do about Trump? Rather than complaining about Trump I prefer to consider what can be done to counter the effects of spirit killing.

Now you want to complain about Gurdjieff. Why? What do you have against Gurdjieff?
Not only did you lie OUTRAGEOUSLY about not complaining about secularism but you also misrepresented a reference to Gurdjeiff as a complaint and managed completely failed to answer the question. For the record, I was quite a fan of Ouspensky back in the day, although turned off by the sexism and some obviously wrong and crazy information. However, there's some fascinating stuff in there too.

But really, talk about amateur hour. It's just fucking sad that people here waste so much of our lives interacting with such am ignoramus.
Nick_A wrote:
Yet you support every single one of the Republican and evangelical causes - pretty well lockstep. So I wonder, what is the difference between your "esoteric theism" and the standard conservative evangelist Christianity currently proliferating in the US, which I would have thought you'd dismiss as "secularised"? In terms of worldview, there appears to be no difference.
Of course I support right wing causes that are part of a healthy metaxu which connects a free society with its source.

Traditional marriage is an example. It is a ritual which reminds us of our connection with our source through the unification of yin and yang made possible through the the reconciling force of the Holy Spirit. Secularism denies a source for human being and the value of the reconciliation of yin and yang made possible by the Holy Spirit. So naturally secularism through its ignorance of the good obtained through the unification of elemental forces opposes traditional marriage.
I think that might have torn it. All the lying and unethical behaviour from the Repubs and you find them morally faultless. QED.

You know, because you educated yourself on some subjects I kept thinking all these years that maybe - maybe - beneath the lies, bluster, instability, pent-up hostility and robotic extreme right wing tendencies that there might have been some depth, something interesting going on in you. I was wrong. You have nothing of worth to offer aside from religio-historical factoids.

Now you drop this feeble nonsense about "reconciling the holy spirit", speaking the old ignorant line that a person's sexuality is a choice as if the last century of science on the subject didn't exist. The only choice is for gays in your schema - since they are born faulty with no hope of redemption - is to become celibate or kill themselves because your gay conversion rackets are proven frauds. I have a very good friend who lived a couple of doors down from me for years. Over twenty years in gay conversion therapy - and now years of undoing the damage. There are no lasting cures, at best repression until an early death.

Further, gay rights do not impact on heterosexual marriages, which are by far most under threat from financial pressure created by theistic right wingers in power working hard to widen the wealth gap. Then you can blame all the divorces on secularism in society.

That theists would blame gays for the damage to marriage that they themselves are largely responsible for says everything about the lack of character seen in modern theists. There was a time when believers were considered to be more reliably moral; they could be more reliably trusted to do the right thing than others and they could not tell a lie.

Today the situation is opposite, as evidenced by the multiple theist child abuse scandals and the outrageous lying of theists in power and, well, everywhere now. The message is clear - just as believers were considered more trustworthy in the past, now they are no longer trusted, and for good reason.

Theists are less trustworthy than secularists today because their politicians have been found to be the worst liars of all - willing to say or do anything for "God's result"; lying to mere secularists is not a problem. Lying to a secularist is like lying to a dog - who cares, right? They aren't fully human anyway so stuff 'em, right?

The real issue that makes theists more unreliable is they now have greater allegiance to their theist tribe than to the truth or what might be right or moral in a particular situation. They cannot be trusted to do what is right any more, only that which accord with ancient creeds. The problem there is that the cultural mores contained in ancient texts allowed for, and often prescribed, atrocities that would not be tolerated in the modern context.

I think I'm done with you. You are simply not up to scratch. "Don't complain about secularists ..." holy mother of moses ... *walks away, slowly shaking her head in amazement*

Nick_A
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Nick_A » Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:35 am

Greta wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:40 pm
Nick_A wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:38 pm
I don’t complain about secularism.
Really???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

How can you lie so outrageously and seemingly without shame?
You are a dualist who complains about your conception of the bad: Trump. Objective good and evil doesn't exist on the earth limited to secular conceptions of good and evil continually being argued.

Why complain? Why not open yourself to reason?

Nick_A
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Nick_A » Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:52 am

seeds wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:07 am
Nick_A wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:50 pm
Seeds

What do you think is meant by this parable?

Matthew 13:24-30 New King James Version (NKJV)

The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares
24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” ’ ”
First of all, as I have already pointed out from the perspective of Buddhist mythology...

...what I think of the parable is that it is nothing more than an aspect of the etchings inscribed on the riggings of a temporary raft that helps to carry humans across the waters of earthly life – a raft that will be abandoned upon the shore of death.

Secondly, as the parable pertains to your own bigoted and nihilistic theory, aside from maybe one or two viable stalks of wheat, the entire field would be tares – all destined for burning.

Thirdly, what I also think is that your use of the parable is just another instance of you employing yet another attention diverting smokescreen to obscure the fact that...

...even though your theory diametrically opposes the core precepts of Christianity, you nevertheless have no problem in trying to get others to believe that the Bible actually supports your claims.

And Lastly, this recent exchange you had with Greta...
Greta wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:45 am
It's very hard to know what the heck you are complaining about with the world and "secularism"....
Nick_A wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:38 pm
Why are you so obsessed with complaining? I don’t complain about secularism.
...is so utterly and mind-blowingly false and disingenuous that it pretty much says everything that anyone needs to know about the integrity of your statements.

Nick, even though our debates are oftentimes heated and contentious, I honestly do not mean to be hurtful or mean-spirited toward you, for I truly believe that you have a good heart and good intentions.

However, if that last bit isn’t the mother of all whoppers ever stated on this forum, then I don’t know is. :D
_______
Really Seeds, this should be obvious. I have contimually stated that the human condition restricts humanity described by Plato as like a beast. From this perspective we are creatures of reaction being drained of our potential for human "being" From this perspective it is as foolish to complain about secularism as it is to complain about life in the jungle. Would you complain about a lion killing an antelope? How can Trump and God allow such a thing. People who have outgrown complaining seek to understand why everything is as it is. They seek to know and to feel the big picture.

My great great grand uncle was an archbishop in the Armenian church. He was also friendly with Helena Blavatskia the founder of Theosophy. Do you really believe that many in their time could understand their private conversations. No, they would be too busy complaining. Seeing seculrism for what it is and being open to discuss it especially in these times when it is causing so much harm to the inner man isn't complaining, it is politically incorrect philosophy.

Nick_A
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Nick_A » Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:21 am

Greta
Now you drop this feeble nonsense about "reconciling the holy spirit", speaking the old ignorant line that a person's sexuality is a choice as if the last century of science on the subject didn't exist. The only choice is for gays in your schema - since they are born faulty with no hope of redemption - is to become celibate or kill themselves because your gay conversion rackets are proven frauds. I have a very good friend who lived a couple of doors down from me for years. Over twenty years in gay conversion therapy - and now years of undoing the damage. There are no lasting cures, at best repression until an early death.

Further, gay rights do not impact on heterosexual marriages, which are by far most under threat from financial pressure created by theistic right wingers in power working hard to widen the wealth gap. Then you can blame all the divorces on secularism in society.
“Reason is identical in all men, whereas their passions most often differ.” Cancel out the passions, and what is left will be reason, justice, the truth: “All men converge on what is just and true, whereas mendacity and crime make them diverge without end.” ~ Simone Weil
This is what I mean by your inability to reason. Right away you are fixated on “against.” You don’t know what it means to be “for” in the cause of a free society. Your passion for denial obstructs your ability to open to the big picture of the esoteric purpose of society which is to further the growth of the inner man as opposed to destroying it in favor of creating an indoctrinated atom of the Great Beast.

In short, you deny yourself the benefits of a free society for the joys of passionate denial of the human condition which limits us to dualism.

I am FOR the religious purpose of traditional marriage and not AGAINST gay marriage. Traditional marriage should be a celebrated ritual of a free society since a society to remain free needs help from above – the light of grace. It is an important symbol of a healthy metaxu which connects below to the above. But you are fixated on negativity, of pulling everything down into the secular exoteric level

Nick_A
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Nick_A » Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:59 am

Seeds
...even though your theory diametrically opposes the core precepts of Christianity, you nevertheless have no problem in trying to get others to believe that the Bible actually supports your claims.
There is nothing new and unique in what I've introduced. Since it is scorned by both blind believers and blind deniers it is probable that you were never exposed to it. I post this link to show how old and expansive these relationships are not to discuss them.

http://www.john-uebersax.com/plato/cp.htm
The following is a list of Christian philosophers, theologians, and writers with Platonist/Neoplatonist interests or influences. Their main works, and especially those relevant to the topic of Christian Platonism, are also shown.
"Platonic influence" is broadly defined here; a writer may be both influenced by Plato and at the same time very critical of specific Platonic or Neoplatonic tenets.

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Greta
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Greta » Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:02 am

Nick_A wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:38 pm
I don’t complain about secularism.
Greta wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:40 pm
Really???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

How can you lie so outrageously and seemingly without shame?
Nick_A wrote:You are a dualist who complains about your conception of the bad: Trump. Objective good and evil doesn't exist on the earth limited to secular conceptions of good and evil continually being argued.

Why complain? Why not open yourself to reason?
If not for Trump, you would be the most brazen and shameless teller of porkies that I'd ever come across.

I can see why you like him so much. Like you, he has such utter contempt for others that he sees them of undeserving of truth, and if a lie can create leverage, he goes for it.

In your case, I cannot see advantage in you denying that you complain about secularists - when that is most of what you have done on forums for the last few years. How can you deny it and why would you think anyone would believe you??

Seeing your usual forum behaviour and continued denial of this very obvious fact it is clear that you hold all others on this forum in complete contempt, not just me.

Nick_A
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Nick_A » Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:37 am

Greta
You know, because you educated yourself on some subjects I kept thinking all these years that maybe - maybe - beneath the lies, bluster, instability, pent-up hostility and robotic extreme right wing tendencies that there might have been some depth, something interesting going on in you. I was wrong. You have nothing of worth to offer aside from religio-historical factoids.
Can you see how it works. This is the attitude of a typical spirit killer that now infests educational institutions. As soon as a kid will begin to smell the coffee and innocently seek to share their questions with those considered educated, they will end up experiencing the same attitude. The goal of philosophy has been replaced with the goal of indoctrination. Snowflakes, the results of indoctrination, know how to properly think.
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams
The goal of statist slavery requires elimination of the goals which support the Constitution of the United States. The transformation of the United States away from freedom as desired by Obama is only possible when when people are indoctrinated into refusing the help of grace. Consequently all that supports the value of opening to grace must be scorned in the most violent ways possible. There is nothing to complain about. This is a lawful devolution of understanding what freedom offers and what is necessary to support it. This devolution is just following the law of the pendulum.
"even if we can't prevent the forces of tyranny from prevailing, we can at least "understand the force by which we are crushed." Simone Weil
Those like Greta will complain while those like Simone Weil seek to understand. An essential difference

Nick_A
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Nick_A » Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:45 am

Greta wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:02 am
Nick_A wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:38 pm
I don’t complain about secularism.
Greta wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:40 pm
Really???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

How can you lie so outrageously and seemingly without shame?
Nick_A wrote:You are a dualist who complains about your conception of the bad: Trump. Objective good and evil doesn't exist on the earth limited to secular conceptions of good and evil continually being argued.

Why complain? Why not open yourself to reason?
If not for Trump, you would be the most brazen and shameless teller of porkies that I'd ever come across.

I can see why you like him so much. Like you, he has such utter contempt for others that he sees them of undeserving of truth, and if a lie can create leverage, he goes for it.

In your case, I cannot see advantage in you denying that you complain about secularists - when that is most of what you have done on forums for the last few years. How can you deny it and why would you think anyone would believe you??

Seeing your usual forum behaviour and continued denial of this very obvious fact it is clear that you hold all others on this forum in complete contempt, not just me.
Why all this negativity? There is nothing to have contempt for. I sense that many people have been hurt by expressions of secularized religion. Why have contempt for people suffering the results of the fallen human condition? We are all in the same boat. What sense is one idiot calling another idiot an idiot? You really don't make any sense.

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Greta
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Greta » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:03 am

Utterly impervious to reason, as if more proof was needed.

Ugh.

seeds
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by seeds » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:06 am

Greta wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:40 pm
Nick_A wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:38 pm
I don’t complain about secularism.
Really???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

How can you lie so outrageously and seemingly without shame?
Greta, I’m beginning to wonder if we are being exposed to some kind of ongoing concoction of a university philosophy professor and his students who are in cahoots with the university’s computer instructors and psychology profs.

In other words, for purposes of academic research they have created a computer program consisting of a troll bot that is designed to doggedly resist and counter (in the most exasperating way possible) any and all assaults against the fanciful theory inscribed in its software.

Hopefully, when the experiment ends, we will each receive a check in the mail for our unwitting participation in this diabolical project (or at least a small commemorative plaque).

So just take some deep breaths and always keep in mind that you might be arguing with a computer bot. :shock: :D

(It would seem that anyone with half a brain has already bailed from this thread. So I wonder what that says about you, me, Belinda, and Dubious? :P)
_______

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Greta
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Greta » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:14 am

seeds wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:06 am
Greta wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:40 pm
Nick_A wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:38 pm
I don’t complain about secularism.
Really???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

How can you lie so outrageously and seemingly without shame?
Greta, I’m beginning to wonder if we are being exposed to some kind of ongoing concoction of a university philosophy professor and his students who are in cahoots with the university’s computer instructors and psychology profs.

In other words, for purposes of academic research they have created a computer program consisting of a troll bot that is designed to doggedly resist and counter (in the most exasperating way possible) any and all assaults against the fanciful theory inscribed in its software.

Hopefully, when the experiment ends, we will each receive a check in the mail for our unwitting participation in this diabolical project (or at least a small commemorative plaque).

So just take some deep breaths and always keep in mind that you might be arguing with a computer bot. :shock: :D

(It would seem that anyone with half a brain has already bailed from this thread. So I wonder what that says about you, me, Belinda, and Dubious? :P)
_______
:lol: :lol: :lol: "... designed to doggedly resist and counter (in the most exasperating way possible) any and all assaults against the fanciful theory inscribed in its software".

I think you could be right. He could not possibly be for real. It's as if I claimed to never criticise Trump. Hello??? That's why I thought he was contemptuous - treating us as if we haven't noticed his daily tirades against secularist "spirit killers". However, your explanation is looking more likely - it's not contempt, just an algorithm :)

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