Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Greta
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Greta »

seeds wrote: Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:15 amGreta, haven’t you learned by now that no matter how many times you extend an olive branch to Nick, he (the “terminator” of secularists like you) is always going to respond to you as described in this 23 sec. clip on YouTube - https://youtu.be/Cy2tjbihyCQ
ROLF! Too true! I have a bloke on the other forum who always talks about Muslims - same things, day in and day out. Sometimes you get people who become obsessed with notions of "zero point" as regards the universe (or something). Day after day, the same things said, over and over. Somehow they find the repetition comforting or interesting.

For such personalities every day is Groundhog Day.
seeds wrote:
Greta wrote: Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:14 am I completely agree that not all seeds are made equal.
Now I am well aware of the fact that you do not agree with my take on reality.
If I did we would probably be the first two people on this or any other philosophy forum who agreed with each others' take on reality. So I wouldn't take it personally - it's just what happens when people spend a lifetime looking through their particular eyes - they develop their own take on reality.

Actually, I am also very interested in the idea of "seeds" - the initial state that sets the parameters for future development. I'm also interested in the relationship between the core or nucleus of entities and their boundary with the environment.
Seeds hoping to set Greta straight wrote:If there exists the possibility that our consciousness (our mind and soul) will survive the death of the body (the metaphorical “seed pod”) and awaken into a higher context of reality...

...and if in this higher context of reality we will each be able to endlessly evolve with an ever-growing and ever-fruitful purpose...

...then what I am suggesting is that whatever it is that made the gift of life possible for us in the first place will also make sure that no human will be denied this amazing destiny.

In other words, it’s either “all of us” or “none of us.”
Too right. The entire concept of "losers" is:

1) an effect of time, the misconception that conditions now are fixed and

2) a concept that only comes to mind to those lacking in maturity. So one doesn't need a higher mind to see beyond that petty competitiveness. Plenty of older people and "old heads on young shoulders" have moved past such schadenfreude.
Dubious
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Dubious »

seeds wrote: Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:58 pm
seeds wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:11 pm Yeah, yeah, I can already hear Dubious grumbling that it makes no impression on anyone because it’s all complete and utter nonsense.
Dubious wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:38 pm Dubious isn't quite the earth-bound hick you imagine. :)
I would never associate the word “hick” with the Dubious brand.

In fact, my impression is quite the opposite (as in sophisticated, measured, rational, and eloquent).

However (as I’m sure you will agree), that in no way suggests that our core views of reality are in sync.

It just means that I truly appreciate when someone like you actually takes pride in using critical thinking in their well-written responses.
_______
...kind of you to say! It's much easier to discuss differences when each side attempts to think critically in stating their views. Our thoughts and ideas consist mostly of our own assumptions metaphorically expressed; in effect, we're all just practicing and playing our own versions of mental chess...a "Glass Bead Game" of point and counterpoint.

I think it's mostly a kind of instinctive rapport which binds us to our beliefs the latter being less real than the emotional feedback generated in its wake; nevertheless it is precisely this field of psychic energy which endows it with a simulacrum of reality...something the brain can play with and ponder on.

Imagination can be just as powerful as reality...especially so when concentrated within the limits of a lifetime.
Nick_A
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Nick_A »

Greta
If you claim that organised religions are "secular" (a oxymoron, but let's humour you) then there is no such thing as "religious" - the concept disappears. So, no, religions are NOT secular. They never have been and never will be. That is exactly the point that you deny.
You like Seeds are closed to the concepts of scale and relativity as they pertain to the being of Man. That is why religion is all the same to you.

The essence of religion is concerned for what we ARE (awakening) and secularized religion is concerned for what we DO in the world (indoctrination). To you they are the same.

Jeremiah Wright is a pastor emeritus of Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago, The church became famous since Obama went there. Of course it is completely secular. It has nothing to do with either Christ or the Trinity but for Greta all religion is the same. Since men and women are now considered the same and devoid of any sense of scale or relativity, it must be the same with religion. Here is a woman who now has to sue Planet Fitness because they openly allow men into the ladies locker room. We create our own reality. If a man wants to be a woman for a day it is insulting that the person be questioned. All religions and sexes are the same. It is the will of the demiurge of the God of the Great Beast

https://www.ourmidland.com/news/article ... 291928.php
What are "machines serving the souls of men"? I would like to know what it is that I apparently find to be poison. I know it cannot be religion because you have already said that all religions are now "secular" and thus evil "servants of the Great Beast". So what are these machines that service the souls of men?

Is there a lot of lube involved in the servicing of a soul? Or does it that just necessary for the mental masturbation of a Man who imagines himself to be inherently superior to most others despite copious evidence to the contrary?
You ask these things and deny what is necessary to answer them. A seriously interested person will determine what is meant by the soul of Man. Then they would ask what is necessary for society to create the quality of metaxu necessary to help it to develop. They would have to establish the needs of the soul and how machines can both serve to allow it to grow or to kill it. This is the last thing a blind denier will do since it is meaningless for the aim of secular dominance and the destruction of the seed of the soul which doubts the value of secular supremacy and is attracted to the source of objective human meaning and purpose. Just believe, obey, and pay the bills. The great axiom of secularism.
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Greta
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Greta »

Nick_A wrote: Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:33 pm Greta
If you claim that organised religions are "secular" (a oxymoron, but let's humour you) then there is no such thing as "religious" - the concept disappears. So, no, religions are NOT secular. They never have been and never will be. That is exactly the point that you deny.
You like Seeds are closed to the concepts of scale and relativity as they pertain to the being of Man. That is why religion is all the same to you.

The essence of religion is concerned for what we ARE (awakening) and secularized religion is concerned for what we DO in the world (indoctrination). To you they are the same.

[usual right ring political rant]
Please advise as to which religions, denominations or parishes are secular and which are not.

That way the rest of us won't feel quite so much as if wrestling with a cloud.
Nick_A
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Nick_A »

Greta wrote: Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:48 pm
Nick_A wrote: Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:33 pm Greta
If you claim that organised religions are "secular" (a oxymoron, but let's humour you) then there is no such thing as "religious" - the concept disappears. So, no, religions are NOT secular. They never have been and never will be. That is exactly the point that you deny.
You like Seeds are closed to the concepts of scale and relativity as they pertain to the being of Man. That is why religion is all the same to you.

The essence of religion is concerned for what we ARE (awakening) and secularized religion is concerned for what we DO in the world (indoctrination). To you they are the same.

[usual right ring political rant]
Please advise as to which religions, denominations or parishes are secular and which are not.

That way the rest of us won't feel quite so much as if wrestling with a cloud.
You cannot discriminate between awakening and indoctrination. Your God of the Great Beast doesn't so your loyalty would prevent any attempt to do so.

Western Buddhism tells you what to do while esoteric Buddhism is concerned for what you are

Secular Christianity tells you what to do while esoteric Christianity teaches how to BE

Islam tells you what to do while Sufism teaches awakening.

The point is that qualitative discrimination as it pertains to Man's "Being" is meaningless for you. It just serves as an obstacle to your worship of the Great Beast. From its perspective all religions are the same in their ignorance. The majority are beginning to agree with you. All hail the Great Beast!

Without the religious influence necessary to sustain freedom, the next Hitler will find this crew easy pickins
seeds
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

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seeds wrote: Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:57 pm Because you are basically an atheist who doesn’t seem to hold the remotest inkling of a belief in the living, self-aware “personhood” of the Godhead represented in the Bible...

...it makes it absolutely amazing to me that you would assume that I would not notice the stunningly obvious hypocrisy of you using the Bible to support your arguments (especially in using quotes that are so rife with “personal” pronouns).
Nick_A wrote: Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:44 pm Show me where the concept of the ONE as described by Plotinus is rejected in the Bible
Come on now, Nick, do you actually think that I can be so easily diverted off into a strawman argument?

We were not talking about Plotinus’ theory; we were talking about Biblical concepts that clearly posit God as being a living, self-aware entity who is alleged to be the conscious controller of the fabric of the universe.

In other words, the God of the Bible is a living Being with a “personal identity” that you could literally have a one-on-one encounter with.

So then, are you telling me that you believe in the “personhood” of Plotinus’ “ONE”?

Are you telling me that you believe that Plotinus’ “ONE” is self-aware and in possession of a centralized and personal identity?

Are you telling me that you believe that Plotinus’ “ONE” is a Being that you could literally have a one-on-one encounter with?

And lastly, are you telling me that you believe that we humans are “created in the image” of Plotinus’ “ONE”?
Nick_A wrote: Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:44 pm How is belief in ONE an expression of atheism?
Nick, you can believe in Plotinus’s ONE until the cows come home.

However, to use it as an obfuscating strawman argument in order to divert attention away from my initial complaint about you quoting from a source whose fundamental premise you reject, simply isn’t going to work on me.
_______
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Greta
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Greta »

Nick_A wrote: Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:44 am
Greta wrote: Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:48 pm
Nick_A wrote: Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:33 pm Greta



You like Seeds are closed to the concepts of scale and relativity as they pertain to the being of Man. That is why religion is all the same to you.

The essence of religion is concerned for what we ARE (awakening) and secularized religion is concerned for what we DO in the world (indoctrination). To you they are the same.

[usual right ring political rant]
Please advise as to which religions, denominations or parishes are secular and which are not.

That way the rest of us won't feel quite so much as if wrestling with a cloud.
You cannot discriminate between awakening and indoctrination. Your God of the Great Beast doesn't so your loyalty would prevent any attempt to do so.

Western Buddhism tells you what to do while esoteric Buddhism is concerned for what you are

Secular Christianity tells you what to do while esoteric Christianity teaches how to BE

Islam tells you what to do while Sufism teaches awakening.

... [some babble]
I need specifics so I can work out what percentage of religions you believe to be "secular" and what percentage you see as "esoteric".

Where are these people practising religions properly rather than secularly? Which groups? Surely you know of chapters of religions that you think are "esoteric" and those you believe are "secular". How can we assess what you are trying to claim if we cannot know quite what you are referring to?
Nick_A
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Nick_A »

seeds wrote: Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:32 am
seeds wrote: Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:57 pm Because you are basically an atheist who doesn’t seem to hold the remotest inkling of a belief in the living, self-aware “personhood” of the Godhead represented in the Bible...

...it makes it absolutely amazing to me that you would assume that I would not notice the stunningly obvious hypocrisy of you using the Bible to support your arguments (especially in using quotes that are so rife with “personal” pronouns).
Nick_A wrote: Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:44 pm Show me where the concept of the ONE as described by Plotinus is rejected in the Bible
Come on now, Nick, do you actually think that I can be so easily diverted off into a strawman argument?

We were not talking about Plotinus’ theory; we were talking about Biblical concepts that clearly posit God as being a living, self-aware entity who is alleged to be the conscious controller of the fabric of the universe.

In other words, the God of the Bible is a living Being with a “personal identity” that you could literally have a one-on-one encounter with.

So then, are you telling me that you believe in the “personhood” of Plotinus’ “ONE”?

Are you telling me that you believe that Plotinus’ “ONE” is self-aware and in possession of a centralized and personal identity?

Are you telling me that you believe that Plotinus’ “ONE” is a Being that you could literally have a one-on-one encounter with?

And lastly, are you telling me that you believe that we humans are “created in the image” of Plotinus’ “ONE”?
Nick_A wrote: Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:44 pm How is belief in ONE an expression of atheism?
Nick, you can believe in Plotinus’s ONE until the cows come home.

However, to use it as an obfuscating strawman argument in order to divert attention away from my initial complaint about you quoting from a source whose fundamental premise you reject, simply isn’t going to work on me.
_______
I wasn't precise. I refer to the God of the New Testament. I can see how the God with many names referred to in terms of the Jewish religion written of in the Old Testament can be interpreted as personal. But the God of Christianity is ineffable and not personal. That is why Christianity refers to the Son and the Cross. For some reason many believe that Christianity arose as just another expression of Judaism. this is obviously untrue.
The historical "double stain" on the Church that Simone Weil denounces originates in the fact that Israel imposed on Christian believers the acceptance of the Old Testament and its almighty God, and that Rome chose Christianity as the religion of the Empire.[22] Despite its universal redemptive mission, the Church became from its very beginnings heir of Jewish nationalism and of the totalitarianism inherent in Imperial Rome. As the spiritual locus in which both traditions of power displaced the religion of powerless slaves, Christianity became the actual negation of its own foundational leitmotiv: the self-annulment of divine omnipotence by the godly act of kenosis or self-abasement.
Of course I quote the biblical perspective of St. Paul. He was a Christian and not just an advocate of secular Christendom as is common today
Nick_A
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Nick_A »

Greta, you still don’t get it.
I need specifics so I can work out what percentage of religions you believe to be "secular" and what percentage you see as "esoteric".

Where are these people practising religions properly rather than secularly? Which groups? Surely you know of chapters of religions that you think are "esoteric" and those you believe are "secular". How can we assess what you are trying to claim if we cannot know quite what you are referring to?
Why believe me. It is a question of what a person wants and needs. Once a person begins to sense that their religion doesn’t touch their heart or is controlled by charlatans, then they become capable discrimination. If you deny yourself the ability to discriminate, that is your choice. However some are not and become seekers of truth. Consider the following link

https://integralscience.wordpress.com/1 ... religions/

Frithjof Schuon’s excellent book describes the exoteric, esoteric, and transcendent levels of religion. Most are content to live with the exoteric level in which all the battles ensue. Suppose a person wants to leave the psychological lunacy of Plato’s cave in order to become closer to the source of their creation. The may seek to learn how. If they are lucky they will find and enter a genuine esoteric path and some even may enter the “Way” which is the level from which the genuine teachings initiating with a conscious source entered into our world
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Greta
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Greta »

Nick_A wrote: Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:05 am Greta, you still don’t get it.
I need specifics so I can work out what percentage of religions you believe to be "secular" and what percentage you see as "esoteric".

Where are these people practising religions properly rather than secularly? Which groups? Surely you know of chapters of religions that you think are "esoteric" and those you believe are "secular". How can we assess what you are trying to claim if we cannot know quite what you are referring to?
Why believe me. It is a question of what a person wants and needs. Once a person begins to sense that their religion doesn’t touch their heart or is controlled by charlatans, then they become capable discrimination.
It's very hard to know what the heck you are complaining about with the world and "secularism". If secularism includes all of secular society plus, seemingly, the vast majority of religions, well, Nick maybe you need to lower your expectations? Maybe you, like Gurdjeiff's followers, must form small, committed groups to grow while the "weeds" (ie. regular people) around continue to fester chaotically?

Yet you support every single one of the Republican and evangelical causes - pretty well lockstep. So I wonder, what is the difference between your "esoteric theism" and the standard conservative evangelist Christianity currently proliferating in the US, which I would have thought you'd dismiss as "secularised"? In terms of worldview, there appears to be no difference.
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Greta
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Greta »

As for esotericism, that is something I've delved into with gusto at various times in my life. One needs no religion for that, just curiosity and creative imagination and the time and opportunity to exercise them.

It's not as though the wonders of existence are hidden from us - they are accessible at any time to anyone who pays close enough attention. One doesn't need religion for that.
Belinda
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Belinda »

Nick wrote:
Suppose a person wants to leave the psychological lunacy of Plato’s cave in order to become closer to the source of their creation. The may seek to learn how. If they are lucky they will find and enter a genuine esoteric path and some even may enter the “Way” which is the level from which the genuine teachings initiating with a conscious source entered into our world
That person cannot be sure that they have entered a "genuine esoteric path" and not another, more pleasant, delusion.
seeds
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by seeds »

Nick_A wrote: Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:44 pm How is belief in ONE an expression of atheism?
seeds wrote: Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:32 am Nick, you can believe in Plotinus’s ONE until the cows come home.

However, to use it as an obfuscating strawman argument in order to divert attention away from my initial complaint about you quoting from a source whose fundamental premise you reject, simply isn’t going to work on me.
Nick_A wrote: Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:44 pm I wasn't precise. I refer to the God of the New Testament. I can see how the God with many names referred to in terms of the Jewish religion written of in the Old Testament can be interpreted as personal. But the God of Christianity is ineffable and not personal.
Are you talking about the New Testament wherein Jesus is alleged to have stated...
the Bible wrote: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
And are you talking about the New Testament wherein it is stated...
the Bible wrote: Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,...In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye...the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Is that the New Testament you are referring to?

Nick, arguments can certainly be made as to the veracity of Christian dogma (indeed, I make a few myself).

However, it is utterly ridiculous of you to assert that your strange and nihilistic theory...

(a theory that seems to suggest that perhaps 99.99999% of all humans ever awakened into life are destined to become earthly compost and nothing more)

...is in any way compatible with the Bible.

The only quote from the New Testament that even remotely fits-in with your antithetical approach to Christianity is this...
the Bible wrote: Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
_______
Nick_A
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Nick_A »

Greta
It's very hard to know what the heck you are complaining about with the world and "secularism". If secularism includes all of secular society plus, seemingly, the vast majority of religions, well, Nick maybe you need to lower your expectations? Maybe you, like Gurdjeiff's followers, must form small, committed groups to grow while the "weeds" (ie. regular people) around continue to fester chaotically?
Why are you so obsessed with complaining? I don’t complain about secularism. The world or Plato’s cave is as it is because of the human condition in relation to universal laws. The problem is recognizing it for what it is. What is there to complain about? That would be like complaining about high tide. My concern is for the young who are attracted to eros and are being killed inside by the effects of secularism. Why mindlessly complain as you do about Trump? Rather than complaining about Trump I prefer to consider what can be done to counter the effects of spirit killing.

Now you want to complain about Gurdjieff. Why? What do you have against Gurdjieff?
Yet you support every single one of the Republican and evangelical causes - pretty well lockstep. So I wonder, what is the difference between your "esoteric theism" and the standard conservative evangelist Christianity currently proliferating in the US, which I would have thought you'd dismiss as "secularised"? In terms of worldview, there appears to be no difference.
Of course I support right wing causes that are part of a healthy metaxu which connects a free society with its source.

Traditional marriage is an example. It is a ritual which reminds us of our connection with our source through the unification of yin and yang made possible through the the reconciling force of the Holy Spirit. Secularism denies a source for human being and the value of the reconciliation of yin and yang made possible by the Holy Spirit. So naturally secularism through its ignorance of the good obtained through the unification of elemental forces opposes traditional marriage.
Nick_A
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Nick_A »

Seeds

What do you think is meant by this parable?

Matthew 13:24-30 New King James Version (NKJV)

The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares
24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” ’ ”
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