Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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seeds
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by seeds »

seeds wrote: Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:12 pm (IMO) the “purpose” of the universe (aside from its utter beauty) is to function as the “womb-like” physiological mechanism through-which the living Soul of the universe (God) literally replicates itself by conceiving its offspring (the human soul) within itself.
Nick_A wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:52 am i agree with you as far as sons of God being in the image of God as far as the inner unity of the three elemental forces at a lower quality. However man on earth is a plurality lacking inner unity.
Your response above is nothing more than a verification of this...
seeds wrote: Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:12 pm Nick, I have tried on several occasions to answer your questions regarding the meaning and purpose of the universe, but you simply refuse to entertain anything that does not resonate with what you already believe.
Clearly, it is impossible to present anything to you in a way that avoids your lenses and filters.
Nick_A wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:52 am In 100 years Hitler Stalin, you and I will be long dead. I don't see how we end up being the results of God replicating itself.
That’s because at heart you are a materialist/atheist who does not believe in a transcendent level of reality. And like all materialists/atheists you just cannot imagine how the human mind/soul can survive the death of the physical body.
Nick_A wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:52 am What makes you think you are capable of the conscious quality necessary for a son of God or being in the image of God?
Because it is imbued within the structure of our being – just as the ultimate form of the oak tree is imbued within the structure of the acorn.

Nick, I do not refer to us as being “The Ultimate Seeds” for no good reason...

Image

(Continued in next post)
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seeds
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by seeds »

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(Continued from prior post)
Nick_A wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:52 am Why is the universe necessary to act as a womb?
It’s because even God requires a method and a means for awakening its offspring into existence.

And I suggest that it is the physiological structure of the human brain that is somehow able to focus God’s own life essence** in such a way that allows it to be triggered into becoming a new individualization of personal self-awareness (a new “I Am”) just like its progenitor.

**(I am talking about the life essence that from the perspective of “panentheistic idealism” is imbued within the very fabric of matter itself.)
Nick_A wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:52 am Is what goes on in the Alpha Centauri star system necessary for Hitler to become a son of God?
From his initial inception within his mother’s womb, Hitler was already a son** of God. Furthermore, what goes on in the Alpha Centauri star system is of absolutely no concern to any of us.

**(Our ultimate form in true reality will be genderless - as is God’s form.)

I keep uploading this particular illustration...

Image

...but its implications never seem to make an impression on anyone (especially Greta).

(For a clearer view of the dialogue, click on the following link and expand the image - http://theultimateseeds.com/Images/18%2 ... ge%207.jpg)

Yeah, yeah, I can already hear Dubious grumbling that it makes no impression on anyone because it’s all complete and utter nonsense.

To which I shamelessly respond with yet another of my recurring drawings...

Image

( :P )

(Again, click on the following link for a clearer view of the dialogue - http://theultimateseeds.com/oakleytheacorn.htm)
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Last edited by seeds on Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Nick_A
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Nick_A »

Belinda wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:20 pm Nick, I did think that you knew better than to read The Bible literally.
If you are right, why was it put in the Bible if it is meaningless? If it is meaningful, maybe you are rejecting something important. Think of the many addicts who have been cleared of the influences that kept them addicted? Are any of their reports legit or are they all lies? No amount of speeches cleared addiction yet something did. Why not take their reports literally and open the mind to why and how they were cleared.
Belinda
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Belinda »

Nick, you would need to be disabused of incorrect notions before I could begin to teach you the correct ones.I cannot do this.You seem to have no idea of what history is.
Nick_A
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Nick_A »

Seeds

One essential difference is that you believe all seeds are equal and I don't. I do believe in predestination and the idea of the elect. Predestination offers the potential for conscious evolution. Of course people will say it is unfair. It is an ancient debate. Secularists will condemn it as idiotic and even those professing to be Christian will debate it. How are those whose minds are still open and haven't fallen victim to blind denial understand the following two biblical passages authored by St. Paul and their significance?
And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified (Romans 8:28-30).
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth-in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will... (Ephesians 1:3-11).
Perhaps Hitler was one of the elect willing to sacrifice his soul in order to gain the world.
Dubious
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Dubious »

seeds wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:11 pm
Yeah, yeah, I can already hear Dubious grumbling that it makes no impression on anyone because it’s all complete and utter nonsense.
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Dubious isn't quite the earth-bound hick you imagine. :)
Nick_A
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Nick_A »

Belinda wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:24 pm Nick, you would need to be disabused of incorrect notions before I could begin to teach you the correct ones.I cannot do this.You seem to have no idea of what history is.
You re too late. I'm too old to be put back in school and assaulted by the secular elite and their techniques of indoctrination first in spirit killing and finally in the advanced techniques capable of creating human snowflakes. I appreciate that you would be willing to spend the money to have me reeducated so that I can learn to reason properly but must confess it is a lost cause. I may be forced to drink the hemlock in the future but still have a few years left to "annoy the Great Beast."
Dubious
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

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Nick_A wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:43 pmI may be forced to drink the hemlock in the future but still have a few years left to "annoy the Great Beast."
Don't flatter yourself; you're no danger to anyone and the great beast as you call it doesn't even know you exist. You'll have to arrange other ways to accomplish martyrdom! Good Luck! :lol:
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Greta
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Greta »

Dubious wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:50 am
Greta wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:20 am Given how little we know about the nature of reality, I won't discount the possibility of larger, containing conscious systems that either currently exist or are in the process of emergence (they won't be male or female, though!).
Quite possibly! But this has nothing to do with god as "theistically" understood and expounded.
It might yet have quite a lot to do with theistic ideas. I appreciate that a lot of modern theists are extraordinarily stupid but - and I weirdly side with Nick here (LOLOLOL) - I do not think the ancients who concocted the ideas would not have been even nearly as obtuse, blinkered and out of touch with reality as modern theists. Societies of the past lacked the modern support structures that allow the stupid and incompetent to proliferate over generations. People needed to be more focused and inclined to take reality more seriously or they wouldn't survive.

So it may be the ancients intuited something real but layers of fictional material have been added since for political, whimsical and cultural reasons. Thus religious texts are largely absurd when interpreted literally and we can only hope that those who are harming the world by believing such absurdities may in time discover the gentle joys of thinking.
Dubious wrote:
Greta wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:20 amThe universe is 13.8b years old. Given the prior changes it's illogical to believe that its current state will continue for the next 13.8b years. How will it change? In ways that are utterly beyond our capacity to comprehend or predict. Thus it's premature to make a decision about the ultimate nature of reality based on the vastly insufficient evidence we have today.
I agree but again what has this got to do with god as a conscious directing entity?
One possibility that entities with roughly the same attributes as God is yet to evolve in the future, in which case belief would stem from an intuitive projection, an extension of the human capacity to guesstimate the future, eg. we know without tasting that a sardine flavoured ice cream would not be palatable (Dan Gilbert).
Nick_A
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Nick_A »

Greta
One possibility that entities with roughly the same attributes as God is yet to evolve in the future, in which case belief would stem from an intuitive projection, an extension of the human capacity to guesstimate the future, eg. we know without tasting that a sardine flavoured ice cream would not be palatable (Dan Gilbert).
Congratulations, you said something sensible. When man acquires a soul it would reflect God's will. The soul would participate in universal purpose by receiving from above and giving to below. Of course for secularized man on earth there is no above and below. There is only here and its value is defined by cash and prestige.
Dubious
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Dubious »

Greta wrote: Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:26 am One possibility that entities with roughly the same attributes as God is yet to evolve in the future, in which case belief would stem from an intuitive projection, an extension of the human capacity to guesstimate the future, eg. we know without tasting that a sardine flavoured ice cream would not be palatable (Dan Gilbert).
For all we know such like entities could already be here. Whether us guesstimating ourselves into the future or that which may already have arrived, such "attributes" of god is a very different conception from its theistic model which invariably defaults to a personal one-on-one experience containing a "soul" inflection.

That which needs to evolve to attain this god-like stature starts from the opposite direction in the sense of having to accumulate attributes which a God has always possessed forever and onward dividing Itself cyclically into the creation and destruction routine.
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Nick_A »

Dubious wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:21 pm
Nick_A wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:43 pmI may be forced to drink the hemlock in the future but still have a few years left to "annoy the Great Beast."
Don't flatter yourself; you're no danger to anyone and the great beast as you call it doesn't even know you exist. You'll have to arrange other ways to accomplish martyrdom! Good Luck! :lol:
Such an insult cannot remain unchallenged. I'll have you know that the Surfire Hemlock Company with the full backing of the Great Beast is already planning to replace the ten Most Wanted List with the Ten Most Unwanted List. I have been informed that I am in the running for #7. I believe I should be in the top 5 but 7 is a good start. So never underestimate my ability to annoy the Great Beast.
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Greta
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

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Nick_A wrote: Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:35 am Greta
One possibility that entities with roughly the same attributes as God is yet to evolve in the future, in which case belief would stem from an intuitive projection, an extension of the human capacity to guesstimate the future, eg. we know without tasting that a sardine flavoured ice cream would not be palatable (Dan Gilbert).
Congratulations, you said something sensible. When man acquires a soul it would reflect God's will. The soul would participate in universal purpose by receiving from above and giving to below. Of course for secularized man on earth there is no above and below. There is only here and its value is defined by cash and prestige.
It's not about souls that make it and souls that don't.

If souls exist or will exist in the future then their future will not be about some kind of competitive esoteric natural selection - with the good guys winning and the bad guys getting their just desserts. Rather, the far future is more likely to see the networking of many minds to bring about the emergence of larger, more expansive consciousness. Further on, these too may find it mutually beneficial to consolidate. Maybe it will be just one giant mind per galaxy in the very distant future?

Note, the lack of autonomy needed for minds to be shared in this way is not something I would personally tolerate, being born into, and have adapted to, a more individualistic time. However, history shows how people have increasingly eschewed personal autonomy for general empowerment, and freedom for control. Thus today societies around the world are moving towards ever more authoritarian rule, seeking more order and less freedom.
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Greta
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

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Dubious wrote: Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:37 am
Greta wrote: Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:26 am One possibility that entities with roughly the same attributes as God is yet to evolve in the future, in which case belief would stem from an intuitive projection, an extension of the human capacity to guesstimate the future, eg. we know without tasting that a sardine flavoured ice cream would not be palatable (Dan Gilbert).
For all we know such like entities could already be here. Whether us guesstimating ourselves into the future or that which may already have arrived, such "attributes" of god is a very different conception from its theistic model which invariably defaults to a personal one-on-one experience containing a "soul" inflection.

That which needs to evolve to attain this god-like stature starts from the opposite direction in the sense of having to accumulate attributes which a God has always possessed forever and onward dividing Itself cyclically into the creation and destruction routine.
It depends on the attributes of any larger or composite mind. One obvious limit of the human mind is our singular focus - I can only look out of my own eyes and can only precariously guess what it's like inside your head. A more advanced consciousness might be capable of multiple foci.

An analogy for this is found in mammalian senses which roughly consist of sensitivity to light, chemicals, vibrations and touch. In early evolutionary history there were microbes with just one or two of those sensitivities, eg. underground organisms didn't need photosensitivity. However, modern mammals bundle up all of those specialised senses into a single, irreducible(?) consciousness. I think of it as bundling - information being taken from disparate sources, filtering out most of it, leaving a multifaceted remainder that is consciousness. Maybe this same bundling is possible with meta-organisation of consciousnesses? To see through multiple sets of eyes with multiple opinions (but with most of it filtered out).

Re: creation and destruction. Without wanting to sound too much like Anthony Hopkins, suffering appears to be key here. Suffering basically chases and coerces life, continually forcing its hand. So life tends to have limited choice but to follow the line of most pleasure and least pain.

In that constant search for respite and contentment, maternal care evolved, which of course had nada to do with alleviation of suffering at the time and everything to do with how many young survived to breed. Mothers of countless species were effectively coerced by nature into alleviating suffering in other organism, their young. There was no punishment for neglectful and uncaring parenting in nature, just that those young didn't tend to live to carry on the torch of apathy. Meanwhile the young of desperately obsessive mothers were more likely to survive the perils of youth and were more likely to carry on those traits than the young of lazzes faire mums.

Thing is, there was never a choice. Motherly love had to happen, and to prosper. And from there came parental care, with those dynamics and the growth of other familial bonds and species-based grouping. There spheres of care were broadening, not for the sake of any morality, but that was the upshot of animals trying to stay alive and feel okay.

In time various species became capable of mercy and kindness, and humans are capable of both these things plus reason. I see these advancements as life's logical retreat from danger and suffering. Actions taken to avoid pain and misery have lead nature and humans to ever finer nuance and judgement. (Yes, there's a glitch in that process at present in human culture, but potted progress is the norm in nature).
Nick_A
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Nick_A »

Greta

You seem to define expanding consciousness as more facts being placed into the perspective of fallen Man. Somehow this abnormal collective will make its way into the universe creating the same havoc as it does on earth.
Note, the lack of autonomy needed for minds to be shared in this way is not something I would personally tolerate, being born into, and have adapted to, a more individualistic time. However, history shows how people have increasingly eschewed personal autonomy for general empowerment, and freedom for control. Thus today societies around the world are moving towards ever more authoritarian rule, seeking more order and less freedom.
You don’t seem to know what human freedom is. There is inner freedom and outer freedom. You support the spirit killing influences in institutions of indoctrination killing the potential for inner freedom yet somehow consider yourself to be above such things.

You theoretically accept the potential for discrimination between facts and fiction but remain oblivious to the relativity of human perspective. For you, a human perspective is acquired by the freedom to argue opinions and call it expanding consciousness. You have no idea of what creates a human as opposed to a socially conditioned perspective and why society as a whole is oblivious of it. Do you think for one moment if people as a whole were capable of a human perspective the results of those like Hitler and Stalin would be possible? But you continue to live by a conditioned perspective and imagine it your freedom. What’s wrong with this picture?

You support the efforts to kill off the normal human impulse in the young to experience the source within which opinions originate, in other words “God” in favor of glorifying opinions as leading to expanding consciousness. The young are attracted to the freedom from opinions you want for yourself by glorifying your opinions and calling it expressing your autonomy.
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