Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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gaffo
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by gaffo »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:49 pm Hitler was an extraordinarily ordinary man who was a construct of his times and was given an inordinate amount of power. Give anyone that much power and they invariably go insane and start mass-murdering (rarely doing the actual killing themselves).
People need to look at themselves before pointing the finger at a convenient vessel for all the evils of humanity. He was only one person. One weak and rather pathetic little man.
Don't idolise individuals. Don't even admire them. Everyone can do something well (some people's abilities are just more showy than others).
you fall into the PC view of history - individuals do not shape it, just groups.

Hitler had the gift of gab - had he not been alive, Germans (who are looking to be lead - would not have unified to this one man - and so no WW2) would have spit into factions (like they had from 1929-1932 (with war in the streets - literally bet gov/communists/facsists).


just as had Yegal Amir never been born - Isreal would have been at peace with her neighbors/end of illegal westbank occupation - since 18 yrs ago or more.

but both lived to fuck up history - for the sheople to follow in their service ;-/.
gaffo
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by gaffo »

Dalek Prime wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:58 pm I thought Hitler was getting a pineapple shoved somewhere, daily, according to 'Little Nicky'. :lol: ... On a serious note, can you imagine what it would be like to be considered the personification of evil?
no, maybe old Ted could though.
Skip
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Skip »

gaffo wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:01 am [Skip -- ¸Hitler didn't make WWII all by himself]

yes an army he constituted from 1932 to sept2 1939.
Of willing Germans, with henchmen Goebbles, Himmler et al; with willing Italians led by Mussolini and willing Japanese led by Hideki Tojo as allies and Stalin with a mass of unwilling Russians behind him in a non-aggression pact.
do you have a valid point?
Only that no man makes a war. It takes lots and lots of men to make a war. And, somehow, there is never a shortage of men willing to go to war, but always just one to take the whole blame afterward.
do you even know history for that matter?
Far too well.

[three legal invasions]

What makes those legal is what makes any invasion legal: the winner says it was good.
What makes an invasion illegal is people other than the participants saying it was bad.
International law is for the weak to obey and the strong to enforce or ignore at their convenience.
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

gaffo wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:08 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:49 pm Hitler was an extraordinarily ordinary man who was a construct of his times and was given an inordinate amount of power. Give anyone that much power and they invariably go insane and start mass-murdering (rarely doing the actual killing themselves).
People need to look at themselves before pointing the finger at a convenient vessel for all the evils of humanity. He was only one person. One weak and rather pathetic little man.
Don't idolise individuals. Don't even admire them. Everyone can do something well (some people's abilities are just more showy than others).
you fall into the PC view of history - individuals do not shape it, just groups.

Hitler had the gift of gab - had he not been alive, Germans (who are looking to be lead - would not have unified to this one man - and so no WW2) would have spit into factions (like they had from 1929-1932 (with war in the streets - literally bet gov/communists/facsists).


just as had Yegal Amir never been born - Isreal would have been at peace with her neighbors/end of illegal westbank occupation - since 18 yrs ago or more.

but both lived to fuck up history - for the sheople to follow in their service ;-/.
You don't know what PC means. And you miss my point (how unusual). I said no such thing. I said humans need to stop admiring and idolising 'false front' individuals. Hitler rehearsed his speeches for hours in front of the mirror, with much inspiration for mannerisms and gestures garnered from Wagnerian operas. How far would he have got if people had laughed at his ridiculously over-the-top speeches?
gaffo
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by gaffo »

Skip wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:22 am
gaffo wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:01 am [Skip -- ¸Hitler didn't make WWII all by himself]

yes an army he constituted from 1932 to sept2 1939.
Of willing Germans, with henchmen Goebbles, Himmler et al; with willing Italians led by Mussolini and willing Japanese led by Hideki Tojo as allies and Stalin with a mass of unwilling Russians behind him in a non-aggression pact.
do you have a valid point?
Only that no man makes a war. It takes lots and lots of men to make a war. And, somehow, there is never a shortage of men willing to go to war, but always just one to take the whole blame afterward.
do you even know history for that matter?
Far too well.

[three legal invasions]

What makes those legal is what makes any invasion legal: the winner says it was good.
What makes an invasion illegal is people other than the participants saying it was bad.
International law is for the weak to obey and the strong to enforce or ignore at their convenience.
you remove Hitler from history and the entire European theater never happens.

i beleive that, you don't. others can pick their historical poison.
gaffo
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by gaffo »

Skip wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:22 am
What makes those legal is what makes any invasion legal: the winner says it was good.

no; legally constituted bodes like the League of Nations and United Nations and NATO determine legalities of invasions.

as it should be.

Skip wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:22 am What makes an invasion illegal is people other than the participants saying it was bad.

again, no: what make such invasion illegal is by vote of above legally constructed bodies of law.

UN voted that the North Koreans illegally invaded South Korea - and there was no need for the South Koreans to tell the UN they were being illegally invaded! -lol.


Skip wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:22 am International law is for the weak to obey and the strong to enforce or ignore at their convenience.

nope - that is the mindset of the thug - like Hitler (you seem to share his mindset about the Rule of Law).

Rule of Law is NOT the Rule of Force Sir.

the former is civilized and beat the shit out of the latter - both in WW1 and WW2.

thankfully, your views lost in 1918 and 1945, and hopefully will continue to do so in the future as well.
Dubious
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Dubious »

Greta wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:20 am You have presented an opinion, Dubs. Yeah, maybe but, like theists, you lack proof even if your preferred evidence is more grounded.
I know it sounds weird to both theists and atheists but proof has never been a function or factor as to whether god exists or not. What we do know about god and gods whether it be its Eastern or Western version is that all such have been created by humans.

God and proof are totally extraneous to each other. What proof could we possibly devise for a god - if there were one - that has remained totally silent and incognito since the beginning of planetary history as we know it? Where is god anywhere in the universe? God's emulation of it's own non-existence is complete to the point where we can safely discount it even existing. And yet we still believe our logic is powerful enough as a "proof offering" to rinse one out even if tentatively! How absurd!!

ALL the scriptured gods are human creations; we know nothing of the other kind where proof becomes the ultimate blunder in eliciting anything meaningful regarding its existence. If such a power exists and wants to remain unknown our puny proof efforts are laughable.
Greta wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:20 am Given how little we know about the nature of reality, I won't discount the possibility of larger, containing conscious systems that either currently exist or are in the process of emergence (they won't be male or female, though!).
Quite possibly! But this has nothing to do with god as "theistically" understood and expounded.
Greta wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:20 am The universe is 13.8b years old. Given the prior changes it's illogical to believe that its current state will continue for the next 13.8b years. How will it change? In ways that are utterly beyond our capacity to comprehend or predict. Thus it's premature to make a decision about the ultimate nature of reality based on the vastly insufficient evidence we have today.
I agree but again what has this got to do with god as a conscious directing entity?
Dubious
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Dubious »

Nick_A wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:54 am
Dubious wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:32 am
Greta wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:23 am However, that would be unthinkable because, for most people, God can only be a "He" - basically a dominant heterosexual alpha male elder - and that is ridiculous in this day and age.
Any presumption of god in this day and age is itself ridiculous regardless of how such an entity is qualified. Who cares if one talks about a he, she or it since gender defining an absolute Nothing must itself amount to nothing. Also, since god was created by patriarchs it's obvious it would have to be a HE. If a matriarchy had been in charge god would be a SHE.

Relative to god, all three personal pronouns are equal to each other in denoting NOTHING; who care's which one is chosen to describe a nonentity!
The Great Beast smiles its approval.
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Skip
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Skip »

gaffo wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:04 am you remove Hitler from history and the entire European theater never happens.
Horsepuckeys! Remove Hitler and the next contender steps up.
No evil genius part ever went unfilled for want of villains waiting to audition.
i beleive that, you don't.
Must be nice to have everything laid out simple enough for you to understand.
Belinda
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Belinda »

Nick wrote:
If the major and minor premises are true, the conclusion is logically inescapable. This conclusion, however, is highly undesirable. Indeed, Christianity maintains that there is but one perfect God who cannot be the source of evil or sinful imperfection. So where does evil come from? There are a few solutions to this problem. One is to argue that there must be two creators. One is responsible for all that is good and the other for all that is evil. This lets the good creator off the hook, but it raises another problem. If there are two creators, then the good god cannot be considered all-powerful. In other words, this god does not have power over everything that happens.
(Nick quotes another's essay)

Why must God be a thing separate from creation? What if God is NOW and creation is the process of existence taking place within NOW? NOW is not bounded by the limitations of time and space yet creation is.

In Christianity there is God beyond creation and LORD God within creation. We can believe in subjective descriptions of evil but what is objective evil and does it exist?

God cannot create himself. There cannot be two gods. God is ONE. There is only one ONE. So whatever is created to serve a purpose must include imperfection which we can experience the natural results of and call it evil. The value and purpose of the universe is in its process while for us, we define value in accordance with results.

In society in previous times people respected the axiom: Now this is considered naïve and the popular belief is “the ends justify the means.” It is no wonder that the idea of a universal process is rejected and ridiculed. Evil for us is defined in terms of results. But for the being of Man, evil is defined by what prevents Man’s gradual conscious evolution into a higher quality of being along the vertical great Chain of Being.

"Where does evil come from?"Nick asks. Evil is absence of good. Man either judges an event to lack good, or that event actually does lack good. Who knows?

A solution to the problem of evil is that there are two gods, one of which is the creator of nature and the other of which is an alternative name for the Good. In this case, in the case of the problem of evil, the Good is not all powerful. As Teresa of Avila said "we are God's hands". God needs us to manifest in nature what is good.

The Christian God is both separate from and coexistant with nature. He transcends nature and also is immanent in nature.

Nowadays it tends to be bad people such as torturers and political immoderates who believe that the end justifies the means.

I agree with
“it’s not whether you win or lose that but how you play the game that counts.”
It's good also to be efficient, and the more people who are efficient and also good the better.
Nick wrote:
But for the being of Man, evil is defined by what prevents Man’s gradual conscious evolution into a higher quality of being along the vertical great Chain of Being
I sort of agree. However the process of consciousness-raising is natural not supernatural nor applicable only to the theory of Great Chain of Being.

What 'Age of Faith means is an age during which practically everyone absolutely believed that reality was an ordered system that was ordered by God.
Walker
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Walker »

Belinda wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:08 pm "Where does evil come from?"Nick asks. Evil is absence of good. Man either judges an event to lack good, or that event actually does lack good. Who knows?
Do you consider the event of this posting good or evil?

I think that evil is the absence of good only when neutral is included with good and excluded from evil, or if the event is significant.

For instance, my insignificant breakfast event was neutral, so it was good, not evil.

However, it is a mundane view, or common view, or dualistic view, that if an event has life changing significance, then it can only be good or evil.

Now it only remains to define good and evil, unless that was already done in the thread, which I haven’t read.

Do you agree, or am I out of context with your meaning?
Nick_A
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Nick_A »

Belinda
N. But for the being of Man, evil is defined by what prevents Man’s gradual conscious evolution into a higher quality of being along the vertical great Chain of Being

B. I sort of agree. However the process of consciousness-raising is natural not supernatural nor applicable only to the theory of Great Chain of Being.
But if "being" is a relative concept as described in the Great Chain of Being, then Meister Eckharts's advice to us to be more concerned with what we ARE rather than what we DO makes perfect sense. Our being is what we ARE.
"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Einstein
But this is what is automatically done. People argue thoughts and believe it leads to beneficial change. Einstein suggested it doesn't work and I believe he was right.

How do we change our mind to benefit ourselves and others if arguing isn't the answer? St. Paul was killing Christians right and left and all his thoughts justified it. All of a sudden an event happened which changed his mind. A person could consider Paul as evil as Hitler so how is this change possible?

Mary Magdalene was guilty of everything imaginable to land her into the psychological gutter. Then something happened having nothing to do with her usual thoughts which allowed her "being" to change. What do you think happened and how could it happen? If our being were not relative, there is no way we could change what we are and destined to remain creatures of reaction attached to the shadows on the wall in Plato's cave regardless of the most wonderful thoughts and platitudes..
Belinda
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Belinda »

Nick_A wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:22 pm Belinda
N. But for the being of Man, evil is defined by what prevents Man’s gradual conscious evolution into a higher quality of being along the vertical great Chain of Being

B. I sort of agree. However the process of consciousness-raising is natural not supernatural nor applicable only to the theory of Great Chain of Being.
But if "being" is a relative concept as described in the Great Chain of Being, then Meister Eckharts's advice to us to be more concerned with what we ARE rather than what we DO makes perfect sense. Our being is what we ARE.
"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Einstein
But this is what is automatically done. People argue thoughts and believe it leads to beneficial change. Einstein suggested it doesn't work and I believe he was right.

How do we change our mind to benefit ourselves and others if arguing isn't the answer? St. Paul was killing Christians right and left and all his thoughts justified it. All of a sudden an event happened which changed his mind. A person could consider Paul as evil as Hitler so how is this change possible?

Mary Magdalene was guilty of everything imaginable to land her into the psychological gutter. Then something happened having nothing to do with her usual thoughts which allowed her "being" to change. What do you think happened and how could it happen? If our being were not relative, there is no way we could change what we are and destined to remain creatures of reaction attached to the shadows on the wall in Plato's cave regardless of the most wonderful thoughts and platitudes..
Nobody's being is definable until they are dead. Even then it's impossible for an objective account to be given of who the person totally was. If there were an omniscient God then He could do so.

Arguing is often the best we can do to progress our consciousness.

Paul probably had what we now call a peak experience which changed his personality, and his moral orientation.

Nick, you are horribly ignorant about Mary Magdalene.
Nick_A
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Nick_A »

Belinda
Arguing is often the best we can do to progress our consciousness.
Are you familiar with the expression "third force blind?"
Nick, you are horribly ignorant about Mary Magdalene.
Luke 8:

After this, Jesus traveled about from one town and village to another, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom of God. The Twelve were with him,2 and also some women who had been cured of evil spirits and diseases: Mary (called Magdalene) from whom seven demons had come out; 3 Joanna the wife of Chuza, the manager of Herod’s household; Susanna; and many others. These women were helping to support them out of their own means.
Maybe I am ignorant but what IYO were the seven demons and what were their effects on Mary?
Belinda
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Belinda »

Nick, I did think that you knew better than to read The Bible literally.
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