Why Physicalism is Wrong

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Philosophy Now
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Why Physicalism is Wrong

Post by Philosophy Now » Thu May 24, 2018 1:17 pm

Grant Bartley argues that to say the mind is physical is an abuse of language.

https://philosophynow.org/issues/126/Why_Physicalism_is_Wrong

jayjacobus
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Re: Why Physicalism is Wrong

Post by jayjacobus » Thu May 24, 2018 2:41 pm

The brain is conditional (subordinate to reality). Consciousness is capricious (impulsive, unpredictable). The brain doesn't explain capricious.

The brain is material and produces non-material senses. The soul is unspecified (?) and produces thoughts. It doesn't matter whether the soul is material or non-material. It does what it does no matter how it does it. But it isn't conditional to reality but it is aroused by reality.

Thoughts may have a physical substructure in the brain (I don't know) but thoughts are created by the soul.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Why Physicalism is Wrong

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Thu May 24, 2018 5:06 pm

Finally a philosopher...

Walker
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Re: Why Physicalism is Wrong

Post by Walker » Thu May 24, 2018 5:08 pm

jayjacobus wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 2:41 pm
The brain is conditional (subordinate to reality). Consciousness is capricious (impulsive, unpredictable). The brain doesn't explain capricious.

The brain is material and produces non-material senses. The soul is unspecified (?) and produces thoughts. It doesn't matter whether the soul is material or non-material. It does what it does no matter how it does it. But it isn't conditional to reality but it is aroused by reality.

Thoughts may have a physical substructure in the brain (I don't know) but thoughts are created by the soul.
Only the physical exists.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Why Physicalism is Wrong

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Thu May 24, 2018 5:12 pm

Walker wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 5:08 pm
jayjacobus wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 2:41 pm
The brain is conditional (subordinate to reality). Consciousness is capricious (impulsive, unpredictable). The brain doesn't explain capricious.

The brain is material and produces non-material senses. The soul is unspecified (?) and produces thoughts. It doesn't matter whether the soul is material or non-material. It does what it does no matter how it does it. But it isn't conditional to reality but it is aroused by reality.

Thoughts may have a physical substructure in the brain (I don't know) but thoughts are created by the soul.
Only the physical exists.
And how does that constitute the nature of the very same proof it requires without leading to an infinite regress towards an absence of reason equivalent in the terms of physics to entropy?

Walker
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Re: Why Physicalism is Wrong

Post by Walker » Thu May 24, 2018 5:29 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 5:12 pm
Walker wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 5:08 pm
jayjacobus wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 2:41 pm
The brain is conditional (subordinate to reality). Consciousness is capricious (impulsive, unpredictable). The brain doesn't explain capricious.

The brain is material and produces non-material senses. The soul is unspecified (?) and produces thoughts. It doesn't matter whether the soul is material or non-material. It does what it does no matter how it does it. But it isn't conditional to reality but it is aroused by reality.

Thoughts may have a physical substructure in the brain (I don't know) but thoughts are created by the soul.
Only the physical exists.
And how does that constitute the nature of the very same proof it requires without leading to an infinite regress towards an absence of reason equivalent in the terms of physics to entropy?
That's not very convincing that anything other than the physical exists, or can exist.

Rationality is the proof that only the physical exists.

If the senses can detect something, then it is physical.

Thoughts are detected by the mind sense, therefore, thoughts are physical.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Why Physicalism is Wrong

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Thu May 24, 2018 5:36 pm

Walker wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 5:29 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 5:12 pm
Walker wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 5:08 pm

Only the physical exists.
And how does that constitute the nature of the very same proof it requires without leading to an infinite regress towards an absence of reason equivalent in the terms of physics to entropy?
That's not very convincing that anything other than the physical exists, or can exist.

Rationality is the proof that only the physical exists.

If the senses can detect something, then it is physical.

Thoughts are detected by the mind sense, therefore, thoughts are physical.
Show me the foundation for "reason" in matter or energy.

Walker
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Re: Why Physicalism is Wrong

Post by Walker » Thu May 24, 2018 5:40 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 5:36 pm
Walker wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 5:29 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 5:12 pm


And how does that constitute the nature of the very same proof it requires without leading to an infinite regress towards an absence of reason equivalent in the terms of physics to entropy?
That's not very convincing that anything other than the physical exists, or can exist.

Rationality is the proof that only the physical exists.

If the senses can detect something, then it is physical.

Thoughts are detected by the mind sense, therefore, thoughts are physical.
Show me the foundation for "reason" in matter or energy.
That demand, which doesn't require a philosopher to make because it doesn't contain any philosophy, still doesn't convince.

This is much more convincing, don't you think?

A thing can exit in many realms, all physical.

Thought, voice, written word and form.

Example: a building.

I think of a building, I write of the same building, I speak of the same building, and I build the same building out of bricks like a good little pig.

All are different manifestations of the same building.

All exist, therefore all are physical.

Not all physicalities are the same.
Some are invisible to human capacity of sight.
For instance, air.

Do you have any philosophy to offer on the topic?

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Why Physicalism is Wrong

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Thu May 24, 2018 5:43 pm

Walker wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 5:40 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 5:36 pm
Walker wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 5:29 pm

That's not very convincing that anything other than the physical exists, or can exist.

Rationality is the proof that only the physical exists.

If the senses can detect something, then it is physical.

Thoughts are detected by the mind sense, therefore, thoughts are physical.
Show me the foundation for "reason" in matter or energy.
That demand, which doesn't require a philosopher to make because it doesn't contain any philosophy, still doesn't convince.

This is much more convincing, don't you think?

A thing can exit in many realms, all physical.

Thought, voice, written word and form.

Example: a building.

I think of a building, I write of the same building, I speak of the same building, and I build the same building out of bricks like a good little pig.

All are different manifestations of the same building.

All exist, therefore all are physical.

Not all physicalities are the same.
Some are invisible to human capacity sight.
For instance, air.

Do you have any philosophy to offer on the topic?

Do you have any? The point I am making is that you summate your argument as:

1) All reality is matter

2) Reason itself must be matter

3) Hence reason must be material (which you have not jumped to)

4) If reason is material, where is the evidence for it considering the question of abstraction of universal constant forms (geometry, conceptss, etc.)?

5) Reason requires the observation of constants if universal change, which matter observes, is to be a constant law as a boundary of movement.

Walker
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Re: Why Physicalism is Wrong

Post by Walker » Thu May 24, 2018 6:06 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote:Do you have any?
Of course. I’ll continue philosophizing and you’ll continue asking questions under the guise of philosophy.
Eodnhoj7 wrote:The point I am making is that you summate your argument as:
I’ll take that as incorrect feedback, and correct your either inadvertent, or deliberately wrong summation, in which you change words:

1) All reality is matter

All that you can perceive, is physical.


2) Reason itself must be matter

If you can manage to perceive reason, then it is physical.


3) Hence reason must be material (which you have not jumped to)

Reason is physical.


4) If reason is material, where is the evidence for it considering the question of abstraction of universal constant forms (geometry, conceptss, etc.)?

The evidence is that the big bad wolf can’t disturb the physicality of my brick home, or its physical manifestation as thought, despite all the invisible gusts of air he manages to blow.


5) Reason requires the observation of constants if universal change, which matter observes, is to be a constant law as a boundary of movement.

Principles exist and are perceived, by you. You exist and are perceived, by you. Principles don’t change. You don’t change. This is because you are neither the thoughts, nor the body.

*

Motion is also physical. To be perceived, mind must move, which is the definition of thought.

When only one thought is thought, mind does not move, mind is not, and one thought is all.

When no thoughts are thought, mind does not move, and mind is not.

jayjacobus
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Re: Why Physicalism is Wrong

Post by jayjacobus » Thu May 24, 2018 8:24 pm

An apple is a fruit. The word "apple" is not a fruit. The word "apple" is a sound or a writing or a thought. But the meaning of "apple" is not a sound nor a writing nor a thought. Thought could be like a sound or like a writing but it's unknown. A voice speaks the word with sounds. A pen writes the words with ink. But a thought is intangible or so it seems. Can it actually be tangible?

Why is that important?

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Noax
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Re: Why Physicalism is Wrong

Post by Noax » Thu May 24, 2018 11:51 pm

Bartley wrote: Physicalists say all events can be explained completely by causal chains of previous physical events. This was, roughly, the scientific worldview before the discovery of quantum physics. Now we know, however, that some events at a subatomic level are affected by whether there is an observing mind.
Typical of these sorts of articles.
Quantum physics says nothing of the sort. And the author of course is using a dualistic definition of 'mind':
Bartley wrote:If <eliminative materialism specifically I think> were true as stated, you could not be having experiences, such as the experiences you’re having now, and the perpetrators of this doctrine would have to claim themselves to be mindless zombies or automata, writing their books mindlessly.
Zombies, because they lack the true mind it seems. A zombie is a being that lacks the mind than a non-zombie has. No physicalist claims to lack what they would call a mind.

Bartley is just confirming the answer he already knows. He's hardly doing damage to the view he's so weakly attempting to discredit.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Why Physicalism is Wrong

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Fri May 25, 2018 12:40 am

Walker wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 6:06 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:Do you have any?
Of course. I’ll continue philosophizing and you’ll continue asking questions under the guise of philosophy.
Eodnhoj7 wrote:The point I am making is that you summate your argument as:
I’ll take that as incorrect feedback, and correct your either inadvertent, or deliberately wrong summation, in which you change words:

1) All reality is matter

All that you can perceive, is physical.

Percieving "perception" by default means it is physical.


2) Reason itself must be matter

If you can manage to perceive reason, then it is physical.

Then the laws of reason are bound to change, hence this argument will eventually change.

3) Hence reason must be material (which you have not jumped to)

Reason is physical.

So number exists as a physical entity outside its symbolic context?


4) If reason is material, where is the evidence for it considering the question of abstraction of universal constant forms (geometry, conceptss, etc.)?

The evidence is that the big bad wolf can’t disturb the physicality of my brick home, or its physical manifestation as thought, despite all the invisible gusts of air he manages to blow.

But the "wolf" does do all that in the realm of thought, with these thoughts physicalized in on form another.

5) Reason requires the observation of constants if universal change, which matter observes, is to be a constant law as a boundary of movement.

Principles exist and are perceived, by you. You exist and are perceived, by you. Principles don’t change. You don’t change. This is because you are neither the thoughts, nor the body.
Principles change if principles are material.
*

Motion is also physical. To be perceived, mind must move, which is the definition of thought.

When only one thought is thought, mind does not move, mind is not, and one thought is all.

When no thoughts are thought, mind does not move, and mind is not.

Physicality is movement as change, absent of thought is merely the boundary of another thought.

Walker
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Re: Why Physicalism is Wrong

Post by Walker » Fri May 25, 2018 3:08 am

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 12:40 am
Principles exist and are perceived, by you. You exist and are perceived, by you. Principles don’t change. You don’t change. This is because you are neither the thoughts, nor the body.
Principles change if principles are material.
Principles don't change. Like you, they are an unchanging physicality. A principle does not change into another principle, although it may get overshadowed by another principle, or become invisible to perception.

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QuantumT
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Re: Why Physicalism is Wrong

Post by QuantumT » Fri May 25, 2018 12:30 pm

Noax wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 11:51 pm
Bartley wrote: Physicalists say all events can be explained completely by causal chains of previous physical events. This was, roughly, the scientific worldview before the discovery of quantum physics. Now we know, however, that some events at a subatomic level are affected by whether there is an observing mind.
Typical of these sorts of articles.
Quantum physics says nothing of the sort.
It's called "Quantum Mechanics". And QM says nothing at all. It behaves in a peculiar manner, that only philosophy can explain.
Physicists deny what it's implying though: That consciousness creates matter (information) from waves of potential.
And before anyone calls 'bullshit', please study the Quantum Eraser Experiment thoroughly first.

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