Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

User avatar
Necromancer
Posts: 405
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2015 12:30 am
Location: Metropolitan-Oslo, Norway, Europe
Contact:

Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by Necromancer » Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:09 am

Functional MRI is one definite way to both detect true consciousness and "see" the very thoughts.

One other (novel) way may be to let two voluntary participants drown themselves in two separate pools and then (f)MRI them to check for their new mental content of them seeing each other in "soul form". This should also be evidence. They can also, presumably, deliver accounts of their experiences that corroborate the (f)MRI data (held from them, initially).

Sure. True consciousness!

:D 8)

User avatar
QuantumT
Posts: 656
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:45 pm
Contact:

Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by QuantumT » Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:54 pm

Necromancer wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:09 am
Functional MRI is one definite way to both detect true consciousness and "see" the very thoughts.

One other (novel) way may be to let two voluntary participants drown themselves in two separate pools and then (f)MRI them to check for their new mental content of them seeing each other in "soul form". This should also be evidence. They can also, presumably, deliver accounts of their experiences that corroborate the (f)MRI data (held from them, initially).

Sure. True consciousness!
Thanks for giving a str8 answer! But can't we do it easier? On a daily level?

And before anyone says no, remember: What was considered impossible yesterday, is normal routine tomorrow! (Crudely spoken)

Impenitent
Posts: 2399
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:04 pm

Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by Impenitent » Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:12 pm

Turing was correct...

it's what you believe, nothing more

-Imp

SteveKlinko
Posts: 440
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:52 pm
Contact:

Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by SteveKlinko » Fri May 04, 2018 1:30 am

QuantumT wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:02 pm
Revisiting the age old question:
I am conscious, but how can I know for sure, that others are too?

How can we tell?

What would you consider to be evidence of consciousness?
Whoever would come up with such a litmus test will have solved the Explanatory Gap, and the Hard problem of Consciousness.

User avatar
bahman
Posts: 2454
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by bahman » Fri May 04, 2018 6:12 pm

QuantumT wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:02 pm
Revisiting the age old question:
I am conscious, but how can I know for sure, that others are too?

How can we tell?

What would you consider to be evidence of consciousness?
Yes, we in principle can. Here it is:

1) We can stimulate brain these days and cause hallucination.
2) We in principle can create a specific image, black tree for example, in mind of two individuals one of them being yourself.
3) We then ask two individuals to report what they have seen and you can be assured that you both experience the same thing.
4) This way you can be assured that both individuals experienced.

User avatar
QuantumT
Posts: 656
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:45 pm
Contact:

Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by QuantumT » Fri May 04, 2018 10:29 pm

bahman wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 6:12 pm
Yes, we in principle can. Here it is:

1) We can stimulate brain these days and cause hallucination.
2) We in principle can create a specific image, black tree for example, in mind of two individuals one of them being yourself.
3) We then ask two individuals to report what they have seen and you can be assured that you both experience the same thing.
4) This way you can be assured that both individuals experienced.
A philosophical zombie would easely pass that test.
In my opinion we need a test to see the deep layers inside. The doubts, the insecurity, the wondering.

User avatar
bahman
Posts: 2454
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by bahman » Sat May 05, 2018 1:05 pm

QuantumT wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 10:29 pm
bahman wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 6:12 pm
Yes, we in principle can. Here it is:

1) We can stimulate brain these days and cause hallucination.
2) We in principle can create a specific image, black tree for example, in mind of two individuals one of them being yourself.
3) We then ask two individuals to report what they have seen and you can be assured that you both experience the same thing.
4) This way you can be assured that both individuals experienced.
A philosophical zombie would easely pass that test.
In my opinion we need a test to see the deep layers inside. The doubts, the insecurity, the wondering.
Conscious state is physical state (you know this by fact when you experience hallucination by disturbing your brain). This means that two brains which are in the same physical state are in the same conscious state. Therefore my test works.

SteveKlinko
Posts: 440
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:52 pm
Contact:

Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by SteveKlinko » Sat May 05, 2018 1:33 pm

bahman wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 1:05 pm
Conscious state is physical state (you know this by fact when you experience hallucination by disturbing your brain). This means that two brains which are in the same physical state are in the same conscious state. Therefore my test works.
We only know that Conscious State is correlated with Physical State. To say that Conscious State actually is Physical State is jumping the gun on what is really known. Conscious State is a whole different category of State than Physical State. Take for example the Conscious experience of the color Red. We know that the Red light that hits the Retina causes certain Red Neurons to fire which we can say is the Physical State of the Brain for Red. But these are just Neurons firing. There is a further stage in the Visual Processing system that produces the Conscious experience of Red. The Conscious Red experience has a Property of Redness. There is no Property of Redness in the Neurons themselves it is only in the further stage of Conscious Red experience that the Redness Property appears. The Conscious State is obviously something Extra beyond the Physical State that we don't understand yet.

User avatar
bahman
Posts: 2454
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by bahman » Sat May 05, 2018 2:27 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 1:33 pm
bahman wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 1:05 pm
Conscious state is physical state (you know this by fact when you experience hallucination by disturbing your brain). This means that two brains which are in the same physical state are in the same conscious state. Therefore my test works.
We only know that Conscious State is correlated with Physical State. To say that Conscious State actually is Physical State is jumping the gun on what is really known. Conscious State is a whole different category of State than Physical State. Take for example the Conscious experience of the color Red. We know that the Red light that hits the Retina causes certain Red Neurons to fire which we can say is the Physical State of the Brain for Red. But these are just Neurons firing. There is a further stage in the Visual Processing system that produces the Conscious experience of Red. The Conscious Red experience has a Property of Redness. There is no Property of Redness in the Neurons themselves it is only in the further stage of Conscious Red experience that the Redness Property appears. The Conscious State is obviously something Extra beyond the Physical State that we don't understand yet.
Actually to make the test works you only need to show that there is one to one map between physical state and conscious state, if you persist that they are different. Any brain state however is the result of specific neurons firing. This brain state is conscious state since there is only one space, space being all possible states, in which all states takes place. You don't have two spaces in which one belongs to physical state and another belong to conscious state. Otherwise you need a mediator that translate physical state to conscious state which this does not exist therefore brain state is conscious state.

SteveKlinko
Posts: 440
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:52 pm
Contact:

Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by SteveKlinko » Sat May 05, 2018 3:50 pm

bahman wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 2:27 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 1:33 pm
bahman wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 1:05 pm
Conscious state is physical state (you know this by fact when you experience hallucination by disturbing your brain). This means that two brains which are in the same physical state are in the same conscious state. Therefore my test works.
We only know that Conscious State is correlated with Physical State. To say that Conscious State actually is Physical State is jumping the gun on what is really known. Conscious State is a whole different category of State than Physical State. Take for example the Conscious experience of the color Red. We know that the Red light that hits the Retina causes certain Red Neurons to fire which we can say is the Physical State of the Brain for Red. But these are just Neurons firing. There is a further stage in the Visual Processing system that produces the Conscious experience of Red. The Conscious Red experience has a Property of Redness. There is no Property of Redness in the Neurons themselves it is only in the further stage of Conscious Red experience that the Redness Property appears. The Conscious State is obviously something Extra beyond the Physical State that we don't understand yet.
Actually to make the test works you only need to show that there is one to one map between physical state and conscious state, if you persist that they are different. Any brain state however is the result of specific neurons firing. This brain state is conscious state since there is only one space, space being all possible states, in which all states takes place. You don't have two spaces in which one belongs to physical state and another belong to conscious state. Otherwise you need a mediator that translate physical state to conscious state which this does not exist therefore brain state is conscious state.
You can still have two separate Categories of States that are happening. We will then have the Physical Category of States and we will have the Conscious Category of States. They can both be in the same Space. Science can tell us a lot about the Physical Category of States of the Brain but has little understanding about the Conscious Category of States of the Brain. There is the Property of Redness that exists only in the Conscious Category of States. The Physical Category of States has no Property of Redness. Neural Activity for Red is just Neurons firing. You can say that Neurons firing are correlated with the Red Conscious experience but the Neurons firing have no Property of Redness. Think about the Redness of the Red experience. It is the result of an Extra processing stage that takes the Physical State of Neural Activity for Red in the Brain as input and translates that into the Conscious State of Redness in our Conscious Minds as the output. The Redness is a Thing that exists as a thing in itself that must be explained. What is the Redness? If it is something that exists in the Physical Universe what is it? What is it made out of? Is it made out of Matter or Energy? Is it some aspect of Physical Space? It does seem to be something other than these things. The Primacy of the Conscious experience is highly underrated by people when talking about Conscious experience. That's ironic because the only things we know about the World is obtained through our Conscious experiences.

Your test will work when Science can explain the Property of Redness that exists in the Conscious Category of States. Scientists must develop a device that directly measures the Redness in the Conscious Category of States. Measuring the Neural Activity is not the same thing.

User avatar
bahman
Posts: 2454
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by bahman » Sat May 05, 2018 4:19 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 3:50 pm
You can still have two separate Categories of States that are happening. We will then have the Physical Category of States and we will have the Conscious Category of States. They can both be in the same Space. Science can tell us a lot about the Physical Category of States of the Brain but has little understanding about the Conscious Category of States of the Brain. There is the Property of Redness that exists only in the Conscious Category of States.
And what is mediator (something which causes conscious state given physical state)? If your answer is non, then physical states are conscious states.
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 3:50 pm
The Physical Category of States has no Property of Redness. Neural Activity for Red is just Neurons firing. You can say that Neurons firing are correlated with the Red Conscious experience but the Neurons firing have no Property of Redness.
How do you know that neurons firing do not have property of redness? Where else the property of redness could come from?
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 3:50 pm
Think about the Redness of the Red experience. It is the result of an Extra processing stage that takes the Physical State of Neural Activity for Red in the Brain as input and translates that into the Conscious State of Redness in our Conscious Minds as the output.
If you are materialist then conscious mind is nothing than experience of redness which this is the result of neural activity. Mind in dualist framework perceives what is produced by physical activity, so called qualia.
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 3:50 pm
The Redness is a Thing that exists as a thing in itself that must be explained...
Are you talking about qualia?
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 3:50 pm
Your test will work when Science can explain the Property of Redness that exists in the Conscious Category of States. Scientists must develop a device that directly measures the Redness in the Conscious Category of States. Measuring the Neural Activity is not the same thing.
My test works if we accept that there is minimally a one to one map between physical state and conscious state if you believe that they are different.

gaffo
Posts: 2480
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by gaffo » Sun May 06, 2018 1:12 am

Atla wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:48 am
Western philosophy is a dead end because they take "I am conscious" too literally. Assuming waaay too much.
In truth the only thing that can be said is that something other than nothing is happening (meant in the vaguest possible sense).
if you can show this (prove) empirically, i'd welcome it.

;-).

Atla
Posts: 2491
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:27 am

Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by Atla » Sun May 06, 2018 2:15 pm

gaffo wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 1:12 am
Atla wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:48 am
Western philosophy is a dead end because they take "I am conscious" too literally. Assuming waaay too much.
In truth the only thing that can be said is that something other than nothing is happening (meant in the vaguest possible sense).
if you can show this (prove) empirically, i'd welcome it.

;-).
Well duh, many of my comments on this forum are about debunking Western philosophy in general, but it's a huge topic overall.. I guess the relevant part here is that scientific evidence confirms that no separate "I" is to be found in the head or anywhere else. And there is also no evidence that consciousness in general is limited to the head, that's just some weird old conjecture. Scientific investigation is restricted to the easy problems of consciousness, but no Magical Barrier around the brain was found so far.

So people who take "I am conscious" too literally, are forced to believe in an invisible, immaterial mind or something of that sort. The immaterial mind is also necessary to keep their stupid solipsism alive.

SteveKlinko
Posts: 440
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:52 pm
Contact:

Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by SteveKlinko » Sun May 06, 2018 3:10 pm

bahman wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 4:19 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 3:50 pm
You can still have two separate Categories of States that are happening. We will then have the Physical Category of States and we will have the Conscious Category of States. They can both be in the same Space. Science can tell us a lot about the Physical Category of States of the Brain but has little understanding about the Conscious Category of States of the Brain. There is the Property of Redness that exists only in the Conscious Category of States.
And what is mediator (something which causes conscious state given physical state)? If your answer is non, then physical states are conscious states.
With your question you have realized what the Explanatory Gap and the Hard Problem of Consciousness is all about.
bahman wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 4:19 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 3:50 pm
The Physical Category of States has no Property of Redness. Neural Activity for Red is just Neurons firing. You can say that Neurons firing are correlated with the Red Conscious experience but the Neurons firing have no Property of Redness.
How do you know that neurons firing do not have property of redness? Where else the property of redness could come from?
The Conscious Property of Redness seems to be something that is not in the Physical World that Science can explain right now. Think about the Redness of the Red experience. What is that? How do we See it? How could just Neural Activity produce it. Physicalists insist that the Redness experience must be in the Neurons but they cannot say how this could happen. This oneness of Physical Phenomena and Conscious Phenomena seems to be more of a Hope than any kind of Scientific finding. it is actually more Scientific and Logical to start with the premise that Consciousness is in some separate Category of Phenomena than to start with the premise that Consciousness has to be in the Neurons.
bahman wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 4:19 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 3:50 pm
Think about the Redness of the Red experience. It is the result of an Extra processing stage that takes the Physical State of Neural Activity for Red in the Brain as input and translates that into the Conscious State of Redness in our Conscious Minds as the output.
If you are materialist then conscious mind is nothing than experience of redness which this is the result of neural activity. Mind in dualist framework perceives what is produced by physical activity, so called qualia.
I am a Dualist. I recognize the reality of Qualia as real Phenomena that must be explained.
bahman wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 4:19 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 3:50 pm
The Redness is a Thing that exists as a thing in itself that must be explained...
Are you talking about qualia?
Yes.
bahman wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 4:19 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 3:50 pm
Your test will work when Science can explain the Property of Redness that exists in the Conscious Category of States. Scientists must develop a device that directly measures the Redness in the Conscious Category of States. Measuring the Neural Activity is not the same thing.
My test works if we accept that there is minimally a one to one map between physical state and conscious state if you believe that they are different.
But you are always only measuring Neural Activity, which is the Easy Problem of Consciousness. You are never directly measuring the Conscious experience which is the Hard Problem of Consciousness. You are always just assuming particular Conscious experiences from your Neural Activity measurements. You might think that measuring the actual Conscious experience is absurd and impossible, but this is what Science must eventually figure out how to do. It is the Hard Problem of Consciousness.

User avatar
bahman
Posts: 2454
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by bahman » Mon May 07, 2018 11:25 am

SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 3:10 pm
bahman wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 4:19 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 3:50 pm
You can still have two separate Categories of States that are happening. We will then have the Physical Category of States and we will have the Conscious Category of States. They can both be in the same Space. Science can tell us a lot about the Physical Category of States of the Brain but has little understanding about the Conscious Category of States of the Brain. There is the Property of Redness that exists only in the Conscious Category of States.
And what is mediator (something which causes conscious state given physical state)? If your answer is non, then physical states are conscious states.
With your question you have realized what the Explanatory Gap and the Hard Problem of Consciousness is all about.
You didn't answer the question. I don't see anything except matter which could cause experience or qualia.
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 3:10 pm
bahman wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 4:19 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 3:50 pm
The Physical Category of States has no Property of Redness. Neural Activity for Red is just Neurons firing. You can say that Neurons firing are correlated with the Red Conscious experience but the Neurons firing have no Property of Redness.
How do you know that neurons firing do not have property of redness? Where else the property of redness could come from?
The Conscious Property of Redness seems to be something that is not in the Physical World that Science can explain right now. Think about the Redness of the Red experience. What is that? How do we See it? How could just Neural Activity produce it. Physicalists insist that the Redness experience must be in the Neurons but they cannot say how this could happen. This oneness of Physical Phenomena and Conscious Phenomena seems to be more of a Hope than any kind of Scientific finding. it is actually more Scientific and Logical to start with the premise that Consciousness is in some separate Category of Phenomena than to start with the premise that Consciousness has to be in the Neurons.
We don't know how the redness is created but we can without doubt say that that is due to neuron firing.
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 3:10 pm
bahman wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 4:19 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 3:50 pm
Think about the Redness of the Red experience. It is the result of an Extra processing stage that takes the Physical State of Neural Activity for Red in the Brain as input and translates that into the Conscious State of Redness in our Conscious Minds as the output.
If you are materialist then conscious mind is nothing than experience of redness which this is the result of neural activity. Mind in dualist framework perceives what is produced by physical activity, so called qualia.
I am a Dualist. I recognize the reality of Qualia as real Phenomena that must be explained.
Matter creates qualia. We don't have anything extra.
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 3:10 pm
bahman wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 4:19 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 3:50 pm
Your test will work when Science can explain the Property of Redness that exists in the Conscious Category of States. Scientists must develop a device that directly measures the Redness in the Conscious Category of States. Measuring the Neural Activity is not the same thing.
My test works if we accept that there is minimally a one to one map between physical state and conscious state if you believe that they are different.
But you are always only measuring Neural Activity, which is the Easy Problem of Consciousness. You are never directly measuring the Conscious experience which is the Hard Problem of Consciousness. You are always just assuming particular Conscious experiences from your Neural Activity measurements. You might think that measuring the actual Conscious experience is absurd and impossible, but this is what Science must eventually figure out how to do. It is the Hard Problem of Consciousness.
What a person report is a part of our measurement. We don't need to touch a hot thing to believe that it is hot when there is a thermometer.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests