Life Support and Death Support

Abortion, euthanasia, genetic engineering, Just War theory and other such hot topics.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

iolo
Posts: 30
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:47 pm

Re: Life Support and Death Support

Post by iolo » Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:21 pm

The question has to be whether the second opinion was worth anything and would be of benefit to the patient All rational opinion says otherwise. Surely it would be totally criminal to let people experiment with this poor child?

Walker
Posts: 6846
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Life Support and Death Support

Post by Walker » Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:36 pm

Doesn’t take long to get brainwashed, does it.

The parents have the say.

Not the state.

User avatar
vegetariantaxidermy
Posts: 8172
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:45 am
Location: Narniabiznus

Re: Life Support and Death Support

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:04 pm

It's not 'the state', it's the medical professionals his care is entrusted to. Of course they can sometimes be wrong, but in this case there appears to be overwhelming evidence that they are not. Religion has no place in medical matters apart from emotional support when it's asked for. If people were genuine about their 'faith in God' then they wouldn't utilise the medical profession ever. You can't have it both ways--use the services, but enlist the help of religious fanatics when things don't go your way.

Walker
Posts: 6846
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Life Support and Death Support

Post by Walker » Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:13 pm

The Court of Appeal upheld a ruling on Wednesday preventing the 23-month-old from travelling abroad after life support was withdrawn."
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-merseyside-43904809

Notice that the quote does not say, The Court of Doctors
Thus, owned by England.

Who pays the doctors in England?

User avatar
vegetariantaxidermy
Posts: 8172
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:45 am
Location: Narniabiznus

Re: Life Support and Death Support

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:46 pm

Walker wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:13 pm
The Court of Appeal upheld a ruling on Wednesday preventing the 23-month-old from travelling abroad after life support was withdrawn."
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-merseyside-43904809

Notice that the quote does not say, The Court of Doctors
Thus, owned by England.

Who pays the doctors in England?
The Govt. is accepting what the medical experts are telling them. Parents under enormous stress can be very irrational.
Look at it this way, if the Govt. had no say then life support would have been withdrawn a long time ago.
Last edited by vegetariantaxidermy on Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Walker
Posts: 6846
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Life Support and Death Support

Post by Walker » Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:49 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:46 pm
Walker wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:13 pm
The Court of Appeal upheld a ruling on Wednesday preventing the 23-month-old from travelling abroad after life support was withdrawn."
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-merseyside-43904809

Notice that the quote does not say, The Court of Doctors
Thus, owned by England.

Who pays the doctors in England?
The Govt. is accepting what the medical experts are telling them. Parents under enormous stress can be very irrational.
The state pays the doctors.
Who signs the paycheck is boss, at the end of the day (week, month).
You don't do what the boss wants, you get fired (or blackballed, demoted, etc.)

User avatar
Greta
Posts: 4389
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2015 8:10 am

Re: Life Support and Death Support

Post by Greta » Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:09 am

I have to agree with iolo - it depends on the quality of the second opinion. There are parents who won't allow their child to have potentially life-saving blood transfusions. Is it wrong of the state to "interfere" and compel them to take standard life-saving options? The state invests significantly via the tax and medical systems in children, so governments do have a legitimate stake.

What have the Romans ever done for us?

Nick_A
Posts: 4257
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Life Support and Death Support

Post by Nick_A » Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:29 pm

Walker wrote:
Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:14 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:28 am
Doctors turn off life support all the time. Why on earth is this being used as some kind of kkkristian hobby horse?
Are you blind?

God sends a plane so the kid can get a drink of water and a bite of food, and the government of England says, F-you.

They say, We own this life.
Yes, the government owns your life. The government is your God with the power of life and death. If it decides you cannot be saved, it doesn't matter if others at their expense want to save your life. Only the government, your God, can make that decision. Opposing God is a virtually unforgivable sin. Your only hope is education which will cleanse your mind of such impure notions. Alphie has obeyed his lord. You must do the same.

User avatar
Greta
Posts: 4389
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2015 8:10 am

Re: Life Support and Death Support

Post by Greta » Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:32 pm

I initially answered the question purely in principle. After reading the articles I found that this issue has apparently galvanised anti-Europe sentiment amongst the American right. I wasn't sure why there was so much heat in this thread right from the start about a British couple's baby thousands of miles away in a world where babies and others die terrible deaths daily. Now I understand the fuss.

Alfie never owned himself. Obviously no baby has the capacity to own itself. So there was a tug-o-war between:

1. the concerns of doctors and humanitarians that the baby, whose case was clinically deemed hopeless, seeing this as needlessly prolonging a dying baby's suffering, and they wanted to switch from treatment to palliative care

2. the concerns of parents who understandably didn't want to give up on their child

3. the interests of the state as an investor with a stake in the outcome, including addressing precedents, along with the need to ensure that limited medical resources are prioritised to where they can have the most rehabilitative effect

4. the concerns of the Catholic Church in reviving its reputation and relevance after the catastrophic molesting issues that reached to very senior levels, and

5. the usual ideological battles around euthanasia and assisted suicide with the usual protagonists saying the usual things, mostly split along right/left lines.

Alfie was innocently in the middle of all this and no one knows how much he did or didn't suffer during this sad tale. Until there are reliable ways of assessing how patients feel, these kinds of problems will continue to have elements of conjecture about them.

User avatar
-1-
Posts: 2832
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:08 am

Re: Life Support and Death Support

Post by -1- » Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:40 am

Walker wrote:
Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:14 pm
Are you blind?

God sends a plane so the kid can get a drink of water and a bite of food, and the government of England says, F-you.

They say, We own this life.
Are we blind? How about the 28,000 people (give or take a few) on this globe who die daily of nothing else but thirst or famine, and God never sends them a plane to get a drink of water and a bite of food, but says F-you.

Your blind faith has taken away your ability to reason.

Londoner
Posts: 783
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 8:47 am

Re: Life Support and Death Support

Post by Londoner » Sun Apr 29, 2018 11:19 am

Nick_A wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:29 pm
Yes, the government owns your life. The government is your God with the power of life and death. If it decides you cannot be saved, it doesn't matter if others at their expense want to save your life. Only the government, your God, can make that decision. Opposing God is a virtually unforgivable sin. Your only hope is education which will cleanse your mind of such impure notions. Alphie has obeyed his lord. You must do the same.
If there is a dispute between doctors and parents then the courts are asked to decide what is in the best interests of the child.

Nobody thought there is any possibility of saving the child, including the Italian hospital. Most of the brain had been destroyed and the rest is going. All the Italian hospital was offering was palliative care that reflected the parents religious beliefs.

To save the child's life would have required that the fluid that currently fills his skull be spontaneously replaced by brain tissue. That would have been a miracle; if God was going to intervene in that way he could have done so in the UK as easily as in Rome.

And if we are to always assume the possibilities of miracles on that scale, then we will be unable to ever declare anyone dead.

User avatar
-1-
Posts: 2832
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:08 am

Re: Life Support and Death Support

Post by -1- » Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:23 pm

Londoner wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 11:19 am
And if we are to always assume the possibilities of miracles on that scale, then we will be unable to ever declare anyone dead.
Has been known to have happened... Jesus, for instance. :-)

Until Nietzsche came along. The Divine Coroner.

(Sorry, Londoner, I am not trying to cause a fuss, I'm simply in an extremely giddy mood.)

User avatar
-1-
Posts: 2832
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:08 am

Re: Life Support and Death Support

Post by -1- » Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:27 pm

Greta wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:32 pm
Alfie never owned himself. Obviously no baby has the capacity to own itself.
Babies start to own themselves at the proper age when they are old enough to go out, get a job, earn money, and buy with their own money a written line from the scriptures on a slip of paper and place it into their own skulls themselves.

Well, that's how I have become a man, anyway.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests