God and Evil

Discussion of articles that appear in the magazine.

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Serendipper
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Re: God and Evil

Post by Serendipper » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:31 am

jayjacobus wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:29 am
Serendipper wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 4:41 am
[what would give you the idea that I would kiss your ass in place of god's.
I did not say that and you have no foundation for saying that. So you are being unfair.
You're welcome to clarify, but it looked to me that you issued an ultimatum fitting the pattern of: "Do ______ or I will not _______" and that's the same deal God gave me.

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Re: God and Evil

Post by -1- » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:45 am

jayjacobus wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:05 am
Can a corporation control how you think? They believe that they can. They believe that they can MAKE you think about the law. The reason they do this is because they own the law. Don't allow them to control how you think. Think outside the law. That's how I am thinking.
Is this an absolute nonsequiteur or what. The question is, "if god is such a nice guy, why do we have suffering in this world?"

How in the name of god can you related the two? without any explanation, your post looks like an intended diversion from the truth.

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Re: God and Evil

Post by -1- » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:51 am

Serendipper wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:55 pm
-1- wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:17 pm
I checked. This is the real question:

If God is such a nice guy, why is there so much misery and suffering in the world?
I'll give you what mom told me: because they're living in sin.
Philosophically speaking, your mom missed the part that claims "god is infinitely good". This is debatable, and your mom got the part right, "god is NOT infinitely good". She punishes the sinners. An infinitely good entity would not punish anyone. But god allegedly does. So the bible was proven right: god creates evil. Humans who claim otherwise are denying their belief in god. Because they deny precisely what god allegedly has said in the bible itself. They don't believe god's own words.

How much more heretical can you get?

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Re: God and Evil

Post by -1- » Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:01 am

Serendipper wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:04 am
I can tell you with the authority of a lifetime of experience that there is not christian on the planet who sincerely believes that god created evil. In fact, God is the definition of good.
Precisely. I've known that. And I am trying and trying and trying to tell them, them Christians, that they are wrong, in this part of their beliefs, because their alleged god says exactly the opposite in the bible. Why Christians are not believing the very words their god says first person singular, no mistakes, is beyond me. If they believe that god is the ultimate, then I am sorry, the first thing they must accept is that god says the truth. But all Christians deny that, when they believe precisely what you say, and indeed, they believe that. Straight against the words of their alleged god.

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Re: God and Evil

Post by -1- » Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:09 am

Serendipper wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:04 am
I can tell you exactly what they (Christians) believe: God is all good and evil cannot stand before him.
Well, not all Christians. Your mom is a Christian; she believes that god is not all good, because god is capable of, and indeed, practices, punishing sinners. Punishment not something one does who is all good. Your mother's true belief is a sole exception to the otherwise false rule of Christians.

jayjacobus
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Re: God and Evil

Post by jayjacobus » Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:29 am

jayjacobus wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:29 am
Serendipper wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 4:41 am
[what would give you the idea that I would kiss your ass in place of god's.
I did not say that and you have no foundation for saying that. So you are being unfair.
Perhaps I should report you to the forum gods if the moderators are gods.

Londoner
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Re: God and Evil

Post by Londoner » Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:38 am

-1- wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:13 pm
Londoner wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:22 am
Isaiah 45:7 " I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."
More usually 'calamity' or 'disaster' which makes more sense when contrasted with 'peace'.
Yes, do what all Christians do best: twist and turn the words of their believed lord, until the word they have gradually altered becomes compatible with the particular Chrisian's weltanschauung.

You Christians are the biggest bunch of lying cheating nik-niks: you don't cheat me, you don't cheat your selves, you cheat no man, child or woman, but you cheat your God, because you say "yes, I hear you, god, I hear what you say, but I shall take it in some other way than what you say, and I shall alter the meaning of your own, very own statement, to suit my agenda among men."

This is pure audacity in the face of your god, and pure intentional ignorance of facts that are in your face.
You do understand that the Bible isn't written in English? That the words we have are all translations?

The word that the KJV translates as 'evil' is not reserved for some abstraction 'Evil' but for all sorts of 'badness'. For example Job suffers from 'evil' boils on his foot. An animal with an 'evil' blemish is not suitable for sacrifice. People complain to God about their 'evils'; they don't mean 'about their own wickedness', rather they are complaining about their problems.

Sometimes 'evil' is translated as 'misfortune', 'calamity', disaster, as well as 'wickedness', but not always since in English 'evil' also includes the idea of 'an evil'. So in Psalm 23: Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me , we would all understand that 'evil' as meaning 'something bad happening to me' as opposed to 'I might become wicked'.

This is an example of what a sane argument about this issue would resemble. Isn't it better than all the hysterical ad hominem?

jayjacobus
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Re: God and Evil

Post by jayjacobus » Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:01 am

jayjacobus wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:29 am
jayjacobus wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:29 am
Serendipper wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 4:41 am
[what would give you the idea that I would kiss your ass in place of god's.
I did not say that and you have no foundation for saying that. So you are being unfair.
Perhaps I should report you to the forum gods if the moderators are gods.
Obviously Job was compensated but God was not responsible for what was done to me.

jayjacobus
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Re: God and Evil

Post by jayjacobus » Fri Apr 20, 2018 4:21 pm

You are the Judge and I am the judged or I am the judge and you are the judged.

Maybe we should get rid of all judges. Better world, better world.

jayjacobus
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Re: God and Evil

Post by jayjacobus » Fri Apr 20, 2018 4:33 pm

Corporations want to judge themselves but there are laws. So corporations made laws to suit themselves.

jayjacobus
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Re: God and Evil

Post by jayjacobus » Fri Apr 20, 2018 4:49 pm

Philosophy Now wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:58 pm
If God is such a nice guy, why is there so much misery and suffering in the world? Kola Abimbola examines an ancient problem.

https://philosophynow.org/issues/8/God_and_Evil
But what is God responsible for? Do you even know?

God could be a good guy but he only has a voice. How do you know that isn't true?

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Re: God and Evil

Post by -1- » Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:35 pm

Londoner wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:38 am

You do understand that the Bible isn't written in English? That the words we have are all translations?
I checked translations in three languages: English, Humgarian, German.

The earliest translations all named it Evil. The exact equivalent.

The latest translations were done in the 20th century for Hungarian.

In all three languages the LATTER translators woke up to the fact that they have to go with the official word, which was, not to besmirch the name of god.

The kinder, gentler words substituted for "evil" were not translations; they were ameliorations. They did serve a political purpose.

It can't be a mistake that in all the languages I examined, the first, rawest and therefore I daresay the most honest translations were "evil".

=================

Bible translators have had a rough time over the centuries. The most impossible word to translate is "arsenokoitei", the word Saul used on certain male people. It is not possible to translate, although its meaning is straightforward and totally unique. It is not possible to translate, because it's an expletive of the worst kind. Western translators found it blasphemous to include a direct, figuratively, nominatively and literally direct translation for this word, which is one word in in English.

-----------------------

I am going with the King James version. Why? Because you, Londoner, want to go with a different version. I am entitled to choose the version I want, much like you are entitled. If you say I can't use that version, you are oppressing me unduly; if you say my version is wrong, I defend it with saying that

A. unless proven otherwise, it is not wrong, and

B. it is likely a more precise word or perhaps even THE precise word of the original, and

C. if you say my version is wrong, then I can declare all versions wrong, as translations can't be trusted, very much like you pointed out.

If you insist that my version is wrong because the translation is inaccurate, then I insist that you can throw away all versions of the translated bible, as you have pointed out that one can't be trusted, and therefore none of them can be trusted.

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Re: God and Evil

Post by -1- » Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:46 pm

Londoner wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:38 am

The word that the KJV translates as 'evil' is not reserved for some abstraction 'Evil' but for all sorts of 'badness'. For example Job suffers from 'evil' boils on his foot. An animal with an 'evil' blemish is not suitable for sacrifice. People complain to God about their 'evils'; they don't mean 'about their own wickedness', rather they are complaining about their problems.

Sometimes 'evil' is translated as 'misfortune', 'calamity', disaster, as well as 'wickedness', but not always since in English 'evil' also includes the idea of 'an evil'. So in Psalm 23: Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me , we would all understand that 'evil' as meaning 'something bad happening to me' as opposed to 'I might become wicked'.

This is an example of what a sane argument about this issue would resemble. Isn't it better than all the hysterical ad hominem?
No, Londoner, it's not better. Your argument does not wash water.

Because: in none of the examples you gave in which you equated evil to a non-evil, could you substitute the following words: good, pleasant, nice, pleasurable, of good intentions, well-meant, moral.

In all your examples evil was a negative quality: danger, misfortune, bad luck, etc. You said "Evil" does not mean wickedness, but it means "all sort of badness". I wish you would clarify which part of "all sorts of badness" does not contain badness. And then tell me how "evil" is not "badness".

You used the word "wickedness", to exemplify that the occurrences of "evil" were not, well, evil. But they are; because they are the manifestation of evil, of wickedness. If there were no suffering in the world, which is in a world absent of evil, there would be no boils, all animals would be fit for sacrifice, and people would have no problems. Al these things are doings of evil, and evil starts with god, as he is liable to do evil, as you could very well read with your very own eyes, just like I, and everyone else, can, who reads with an open mind and with open eyes.

Still in doubt? PLease tell me which is the earliest edition extant of the bible, and what language it was written in. I'll check the translation and see if it uses a direct equivalent to the English "evil" in that critical spot.

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Re: God and Evil

Post by fooloso4 » Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:53 pm

Londoner:
Isaiah 45:7 " I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."
More usually 'calamity' or 'disaster' which makes more sense when contrasted with 'peace'.
I think the relationship between peace and evil can be seen in the following:

Ecclesiastes 1:14 “vexation of spirit”. The root of the term translated as ‘vexation’ is from the term translated as evil, the Hebrew ‘ra’’ ( רע).

What is evil, as the term is used here, is what destroys or disrupts or stands in the way of peace. Peace includes such things as peace of mind or to be untroubled and at ease. Calamitous or disastrous events can disrupt peace but there are other things that may stand in the way of a person or group being at peace.
The word that the KJV translates as 'evil' is not reserved for some abstraction 'Evil' but for all sorts of 'badness'.
I agree, as with many translated terms there is a twofold problem: there is no one word that captures the range of its meaning, and the word used to translate it often carries meanings that are not present in the original. This certainly is the case with ‘evil’, which has accrued different meanings over time as it became reified and personified.

Londoner
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Re: God and Evil

Post by Londoner » Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:34 pm

-1- wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:46 pm

No, Londoner, it's not better. Your argument does not wash water.

Because: in none of the examples you gave in which you equated evil to a non-evil, could you substitute the following words: good, pleasant, nice, pleasurable, of good intentions, well-meant, moral.

In all your examples evil was a negative quality: danger, misfortune, bad luck, etc. You said "Evil" does not mean wickedness, but it means "all sort of badness". I wish you would clarify which part of "all sorts of badness" does not contain badness. And then tell me how "evil" is not "badness".
It can mean 'badness' in different senses.

There is 'bad that I drop a hammer on my toe' and 'bad in that I break God's law'. The first is not morally bad, the second is. As I explained, 'evil' in the slightly archaic English of the KJV also has both meanings.
You used the word "wickedness", to exemplify that the occurrences of "evil" were not, well, evil. But they are; because they are the manifestation of evil, of wickedness. If there were no suffering in the world, which is in a world absent of evil, there would be no boils, all animals would be fit for sacrifice, and people would have no problems.
That only makes sense if you think 'Evil' is some sort of stuff, a sort of Gremlin, wandering around the world tripping people up and starting avalanches etc. Even if you have this eccentric view it would still be contrasted with 'evil' in the moral sense (unless you think that things like boils are sentient, inflicting themselves on people for fun).
Al these things are doings of evil, and evil starts with god, as he is liable to do evil, as you could very well read with your very own eyes, just like I, and everyone else, can, who reads with an open mind and with open eyes.

Still in doubt? PLease tell me which is the earliest edition extant of the bible, and what language it was written in. I'll check the translation and see if it uses a direct equivalent to the English "evil" in that critical spot.
You really don't know this? You would think that somebody who claims to 'read with open eyes' would already know the basics facts about what they are reading.

Fascinating that you can be so abusive to me, calling me a liar and a cheat etc.,...and then only as an afterthought consider you might check-up on whether I might be right or not - and ask me, the 'liar' and 'cheat' to explain how you should go about doing that!
I checked translations in three languages: English, Humgarian, German.

The earliest translations all named it Evil. The exact equivalent.

The latest translations were done in the 20th century for Hungarian.

In all three languages the LATTER translators woke up to the fact that they have to go with the official word, which was, not to besmirch the name of god.
As I keep explaining, that is because the meaning of the word 'Evil' in those early translations does not have the same meaning it does nowadays. Now 'evil' usually only means 'morally bad', we don't speak of 'an evil having befallen me' any more. But then it used to cover both and that is also the case with the Hebrew word they are translating. That is why I gave you all those examples.

It is like 'forgive us our trespasses'. Once 'trespass' just meant 'to commit an offence against' in a general sense. Now its meaning is almost always 'to enter land or property without permission'. So modern translations will sometimes change 'trespass' for a different word. Because our language has changed, the original translator's choice has now become misleading. It isn't a cunning plot.

But please go on instructing me in a subject you admit you know nothing about.

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