We cannot understand how we decide

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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bahman
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We cannot understand how we decide

Post by bahman » Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:18 pm

Decision is not mechanical therefore we cannot understand how they work. Mechanical is however the only way we understand the reality that we observe. Mechanical simply means that given a state of affair you always get the same state of affair afterward.

Philosophy Explorer
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Re: We cannot understand how we decide

Post by Philosophy Explorer » Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:09 pm

bahman wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:18 pm
Decision is not mechanical therefore we cannot understand how they work. Mechanical is however the only way we understand the reality that we observe. Mechanical simply means that given a state of affair you always get the same state of affair afterward.
Based on sales experience, decision can be mechanical.

PhilX 🇺🇸

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bahman
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Re: We cannot understand how we decide

Post by bahman » Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:56 pm

Philosophy Explorer wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:09 pm
bahman wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:18 pm
Decision is not mechanical therefore we cannot understand how they work. Mechanical is however the only way we understand the reality that we observe. Mechanical simply means that given a state of affair you always get the same state of affair afterward.
Based on sales experience, decision can be mechanical.

PhilX 🇺🇸
You see average behavior in sales.

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Re: We cannot understand how we decide

Post by Philosophy Explorer » Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:09 pm

bahman wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:56 pm
Philosophy Explorer wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:09 pm
bahman wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:18 pm
Decision is not mechanical therefore we cannot understand how they work. Mechanical is however the only way we understand the reality that we observe. Mechanical simply means that given a state of affair you always get the same state of affair afterward.
Based on sales experience, decision can be mechanical.

PhilX 🇺🇸
You see average behavior in sales.
You know the difference between talking and silence. When the rep talks, he's distracting his prospect from decision-making which leads to his prospect responding with a no. Every experiment confirms this fact.

So decision-making in part is mechanical-based (look up negotiation tactics for more on this).

PhilX 🇺🇸

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bahman
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Re: We cannot understand how we decide

Post by bahman » Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:22 pm

Philosophy Explorer wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:09 pm
bahman wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:18 pm
Decision is not mechanical therefore we cannot understand how they work. Mechanical is however the only way we understand the reality that we observe. Mechanical simply means that given a state of affair you always get the same state of affair afterward.
Based on sales experience, decision can be mechanical.

PhilX 🇺🇸
Could you please elaborate on this?

Philosophy Explorer
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Re: We cannot understand how we decide

Post by Philosophy Explorer » Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:24 pm

bahman wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:22 pm
Philosophy Explorer wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:09 pm
bahman wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:18 pm
Decision is not mechanical therefore we cannot understand how they work. Mechanical is however the only way we understand the reality that we observe. Mechanical simply means that given a state of affair you always get the same state of affair afterward.
Based on sales experience, decision can be mechanical.

PhilX 🇺🇸
Could you please elaborate on this?
I already did. Read my other posts.

PhilX 🇺🇸

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Re: We cannot understand how we decide

Post by Science Fan » Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:48 pm

We understand the world in other than the non-mechanical terms you mentioned. Quantum mechanics is based on probabilistic outcomes, not determinative ones, which is one example where our knowledge is not merely the mechanical knowledge you describe. Even in genetics, we are using probability models as hundreds of genes seem to have a slight impact, which is also affected by the environment, on our traits.

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bahman
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Re: We cannot understand how we decide

Post by bahman » Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:24 pm

Science Fan wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:48 pm
We understand the world in other than the non-mechanical terms you mentioned. Quantum mechanics is based on probabilistic outcomes, not determinative ones, which is one example where our knowledge is not merely the mechanical knowledge you describe. Even in genetics, we are using probability models as hundreds of genes seem to have a slight impact, which is also affected by the environment, on our traits.
Yes. I missed stochastic process. But what I am talking about is not stochastic process too. We experience it. You can decide whether you continue this discussion or not.

Walker
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Re: We cannot understand how we decide

Post by Walker » Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:44 pm

Bahman wrote:Decision is not mechanical therefore we cannot understand how they work. Mechanical is however the only way we understand the reality that we observe. Mechanical simply means that given a state of affair you always get the same state of affair afterward.
Decision making is mechanical because intent causes action, even if intent be not known.

Comprehending intent varies by capacity.

Capacity only limits the principle that decision making is mechanical if knowing intent lies beyond the realm of human comprehension. However, it does not.

Decision making is mechanical because intent reveals the true why that subsumes lies and predicts what every time.

If all factors are always repeated then the same decision will always result. In the realm of decisions, among all factors the principal factor of consciousness that assigns associated value is always present. Consciousness assigns significance via distinctions and uses a cultural value system to judge significance. Intent will also permit consciousness to emphasize and disregard any factors that may be present, a process which produces both a daredevil thrilling or a priest instilling, peace in the doomed.

One need only read Crime and Punishment to see the inevitability, if not the particulars, of OJ’s hypotheticals.

Impenitent
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Re: We cannot understand how we decide

Post by Impenitent » Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:15 pm

do you understand that you have decided not to understand?

this is no absolution ...

-Imp

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bahman
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Re: We cannot understand how we decide

Post by bahman » Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:29 pm

Walker wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:44 pm
Bahman wrote:Decision is not mechanical therefore we cannot understand how they work. Mechanical is however the only way we understand the reality that we observe. Mechanical simply means that given a state of affair you always get the same state of affair afterward.
Decision making is mechanical because intent causes action, even if intent be not known.

Comprehending intent varies by capacity.

Capacity only limits the principle that decision making is mechanical if knowing intent lies beyond the realm of human comprehension. However, it does not.

Decision making is mechanical because intent reveals the true why that subsumes lies and predicts what every time.

If all factors are always repeated then the same decision will always result. In the realm of decisions, among all factors the principal factor of consciousness that assigns associated value is always present. Consciousness assigns significance via distinctions and uses a cultural value system to judge significance. Intent will also permit consciousness to emphasize and disregard any factors that may be present, a process which produces both a daredevil thrilling or a priest instilling, peace in the doomed.

One need only read Crime and Punishment to see the inevitability, if not the particulars, of OJ’s hypotheticals.
So you don't have the free ability to decide whether you want to continue the discussion or not?

Walker
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Re: We cannot understand how we decide

Post by Walker » Fri Mar 16, 2018 5:33 am

That depends upon what you mean by “free ability to decide.”

- It also depends upon what you mean by a decision.
- It also depends upon what you mean by free ability.

For you to know what you mean by free ability to decide requires consideration of:

- Does action turn thought into a decision?
- Does conviction without action turn a thought into a decision, and if so, then what distinguishes a conviction from a thought?
- “Free ability” implies some ability unencumbered by influences such as thought, thoughtless reactions, or conditioning. It can also mean an ability acquired at no cost. Without an empirical example, free ability is simply an ideation, much like a human form moving at light speed is just an ideation.

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bahman
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Re: We cannot understand how we decide

Post by bahman » Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:45 pm

Walker wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 5:33 am
That depends upon what you mean by “free ability to decide.”

- It also depends upon what you mean by a decision.
- It also depends upon what you mean by free ability.

For you to know what you mean by free ability to decide requires consideration of:

- Does action turn thought into a decision?
- Does conviction without action turn a thought into a decision, and if so, then what distinguishes a conviction from a thought?
- “Free ability” implies some ability unencumbered by influences such as thought, thoughtless reactions, or conditioning. It can also mean an ability acquired at no cost. Without an empirical example, free ability is simply an ideation, much like a human form moving at light speed is just an ideation.
There is a process everywhere you look. It contains three steps, experience, act and separation between the formers so called decision. The point of separation is necessary. We experience our decision too.

Walker
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Re: We cannot understand how we decide

Post by Walker » Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:20 am

bahman wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:45 pm
There is a process everywhere you look. It contains three steps, experience, act and separation between the formers so called decision. The point of separation is necessary. We experience our decision too.
Folks often do things that no one would ever choose to do.

- No free decision is involved in this process because people invariably do only what they must do.
- Decisions are not free because decisions function primarily to affirm self-concept.
- Free choice is a popular myth.
- All choices are enslaved to the self-concept.

Therefore, decisions are made to affirm a self-concept, whatever that may be.
- Decisions vary because situations vary and experiences vary, but the experiencer is the same, and the self-concept that defines the experiencer compels every decision.

This is why that deputy stood in a safe place and listened to the gunshots.
- He had no choice.
- He was compelled by his self-concept, as are we all.

Whether or not you can articulate the concept, or even know of it, is irrelevant.
It's there, compelling you, and it reveals in your actions.

Walker
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Re: We cannot understand how we decide

Post by Walker » Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:50 pm

”bahman” wrote:The point of separation is necessary.
The point of separation is where stillness changes to movement.

Combining “point of separation” with self-concept in regards to decision-making results in:

The point of separation is where and when self-concept compels action in order to maintain the perceived stasis of self-concept.

Tracing the cause of any decision reveals that maintaining the stasis of self-concept is the root of all decisions, and as the point of separation, the struggle to maintain stasis, or return to a point of stasis, is the reason for effortation.

For example, a data-fudging climatologist does so to maintain the stasis of a particular self-concept that includes the capacity to fudge, although the rationale for fudging may well be the blind-spot attitude of, the end justifies the means.

A less complex example is thirst.

The body moves to drink in order to maintain the stasis of the life with which the body identifies. Presence of awareness pauses the motion towards drinking in order for rationality to consider the beverage source and type, an imposition upon the body’s inclination which is yet another advantage of a human birth.

If the self-concept is compatible with the perpetuation of one’s own life, as most decisions are, then a decision will be made to maintain the stasis of life by not drinking, after sensory data or memory indicates possible danger in the beverage.

If the self-concept includes suicide, and presence of awareness indicates danger in the drink, then the decision will be made to drink up, Socrates, because the point of separation between motionless not drinking and the motion of drinking is the affirmation of self-concept.

Savvy?

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