What if....Nick uses ''man'' as a description of ego?
Of course, I'm sure Nick will verify this or not.The Ego is a veil between humans and God. ~Rumi
This is where you go wrong IMO. You think ethics are governed by the intellect-we do what we think. No, ethical or moral actions originate with the heart.Don't we create our own reality?
In our own minds! Some of which are megalomaniacal. Ignorance of self motivation, the psyche, still makes one ignorant. I'd say, even more so than most things. But then there are many that only know a world of ignorance! Though in truth it's never really blissful, rather seemingly so, while it lasts. Until the truth sets in, like an asteroid the size of texas.
They are both based on subjective values?
Nope mine is based upon grey matter not muscle fibres; Brain over brawn; Intellect over stupidity. I have a much greater grasp of the ever so much bigger picture.
Nothing is sillier than listening to these intellectuals speaking about ethics and what we should do without any understanding that all their hypocrisy is the result of the ignorance of their heart.People mistakenly assume that their thinking is done by their head; it is actually done by the heart which first dictates the conclusion, then commands the head to provide the reasoning that will defend it. Anthony de Mello
You seem to assert that values like respect for life have an external origin and the result of thought. What if Plato is right and that eternal values have an internal origin and just the desire of the soul to do what is natural for it? It just means that the human condition has made it impossible for us to be normal. The big picture then is what it requires for us to become normal. Plato defined Man as “a being in search of meaning.” Can we really experience objective meaning and the values which reflect it without first becoming normal? It seems that for collective man, what we have become can only produce collective hypocrisy regardless of the most wonderful speeches.Plato realises that all theories propounded by Cephalus, Thrasymachus and Glaucon, contained one common element. That one common element was that all the them treated justice as something external "an accomplishment, an importation, or a convention, they have, none of them carried it into the soul or considered it in the place of its habitation." Plato prove that justice does not depend upon a chance, convention or upon external force. It is the right condition of the human soul by the very nature of man when seen in the fullness of his environment. It is in this way that Plato condemned the position taken by Glaucon that justice is something which is external. According to Plato, it is internal as it resides in the human soul. "It is now regarded as an inward grace and its understanding is shown to involve a study of the inner man." It is, therefore, natural and no artificial. It is therefore, not born of fear of the weak but of the longing of the human soul to do a duty according to its nature.
The ultimate purpose of organic life on earth is to steadily evolve to a point where the essence of life - imbued within the fabric of matter itself - can reach the human level of consciousness.
The fact that I have a different foundation isn’t being critical of yours. It is just that it answers my questions.The ultimate purpose of organic life on earth is to steadily evolve to a point where the essence of life - imbued within the fabric of matter itself - can reach the human level of consciousness.
But if a worm has reached the potential of its being and cannot be other than a worm, what other objective purpose can a worm serve other than the mechanical transformation of substances? It is the same with animal man that governs our lives. It is a product of the earth so returns to the earth.And although the means (i.e., the transformation of substances) are crucial to achieving that purpose, they (the means) do not represent the “purpose” of organic life itself.
Dam, in case you haven’t noticed, Nick is the purveyor of one of the most elitist and restricted religious concepts I have ever encountered.
I too have often sided with Nick, for I believe he has a good heart and noble intentions in the battle against materialism.
I hadn't noticed that, I wasn't even looking for that, I wouldn't even dream of thinking and accusing anything like that.
I hadn't noticed that, I wasn't even looking for that, I wouldn't even dream of thinking and accusing anything like that.seeds wrote: ↑Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:21 amCouched within the sheepskin of his spiritualistic rhetoric is his wolfish assertion that the vast majority of the estimated 107 billion human souls who have awakened into life on earth are doomed to eternal oblivion due to their inability to reach some sort of “cosmic man” status.
I don't think paying more attention will change how I see Nick's message...I don't know or even care what he believes, he has the right to believe what he wants...just as you believe what you want. I simply resonate, and that's it.
I side with most people, but sometimes I jump sides in order to play each role....sometimes I side with the higher self self and sometimes I jump over to the other side of the fence to side with the lower self self....I side with you seeds as well, you have great insights to offer.
Why ask me? You would have to find reasons in Plato who defended infanticide as a function of eugenics (survival of the fittest) as a societal necessity to keep it balanced and healthy. I think it’s logical to conclude that if he respected life as anything approaching an “eternal value”, he would have reconsidered abandoning neonates in an earthen vessel to die of exposure or picked up by anybody who wanted it. He’s your master of eternal values, not mine. I only subscribe to the eternal validity, not value, of the following as given by Heraclitus…Nick_A wrote: ↑Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:45 amYou still haven't explained what is wrong with infanticide if there are no eternal values.
Dubious wrote: ↑Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:32 amInfanticide should be one of your eternal values being fully accepted, found perfectly reasonable and completely justified by Plato himself, one of your chief enlightenment gurus and expounder of Eternal Values. Explain that!
To quote Will Durant:
Plato will call for the exposure of all feeble children and of those born of base or elderly parents.
Why is it EVERYONE thinks you're a complete mental screw-up...except one who has the same "cultist" mentality as you.
Nick_A wrote: ↑Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:45 amIf you would think as good as you emote you may discover an important question. How does respecting survival of the fittest as a natural value relate to respect for life as an eternal value? Let's see how you can complain that away for the safety of avoiding contemplation.
But you don't seem to understand...there is only infinity for eternity in which the finite happens infinitely.Dubious wrote: ↑Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:41 am
As unchangeable fact, these quotes cannot be qualified as eternal values because describing such in terms of “eternal” is a stupid contradiction coming from a diseased solipsistic brain since ALL values, and their degrees of significance, are predetermined by an evaluator whose length of days compose a considerably smaller number when compared to eternity. Eternal values, a phrase you use so prolifically, is the ultimate oxymoron to establish your cracked cultist views. It's your type, among others, that cause major miseries to a group if ever given the power.
Btw, I don't avoid contemplation anywhere near as much as you avoid sanity!
Do you even know what this means?There is nothing permanent except change.
No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man.
seeds wrote: ↑Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:21 amDam, in case you haven’t noticed, Nick is the purveyor of one of the most elitist and restricted religious concepts I have ever encountered.
Couched within the sheepskin of his spiritualistic rhetoric is his wolfish assertion that the vast majority of the estimated 107 billion human souls who have awakened into life on earth are doomed to eternal oblivion due to their inability to reach some sort of “cosmic man” status.
You need to pay closer attention to what he himself actually believes, and not be fooled by the obfuscating details of his presentation.
I too have often sided with Nick, for I believe he has a good heart and noble intentions in the battle against materialism.
However, as the old saying goes, one must “beware of false prophets.”
_______
The kernel of wheat refers to the seed of the soul23 Jesus replied, “The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. 24 Very truly I tell you, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds. 25 Anyone who loves their life will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
Obviously there are two possibilities. Yet Seeds considers this awareness the height of elitism. It is amazing how often common sense is considered elitism.What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?
Dubious wrote: ↑Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:41 amWhy ask me? You would have to find reasons in Plato who defended infanticide as a function of eugenics (survival of the fittest) as a societal necessity to keep it balanced and healthy. I think it’s logical to conclude that if he respected life as anything approaching an “eternal value”, he would have reconsidered abandoning neonates in an earthen vessel to die of exposure or picked up by anybody who wanted it. He’s your master of eternal values, not mine. I only subscribe to the eternal validity, not value, of the following as given by Heraclitus…Nick_A wrote: ↑Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:45 amYou still haven't explained what is wrong with infanticide if there are no eternal values.
Dubious wrote: ↑Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:32 amInfanticide should be one of your eternal values being fully accepted, found perfectly reasonable and completely justified by Plato himself, one of your chief enlightenment gurus and expounder of Eternal Values. Explain that!
To quote Will Durant:
Plato will call for the exposure of all feeble children and of those born of base or elderly parents.
Why is it EVERYONE thinks you're a complete mental screw-up...except one who has the same "cultist" mentality as you.
There is nothing permanent except change.
No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man.
As unchangeable fact, these quotes cannot be qualified as eternal values because describing such in terms of “eternal” is a stupid contradiction coming from a diseased solipsistic brain since ALL values, and their degrees of significance, are predetermined by an evaluator whose length of days compose a considerably smaller number when compared to eternity. Eternal values, a phrase you use so prolifically, is the ultimate oxymoron to establish your cracked cultist views. It's your type, among others, that cause major miseries to a group if ever given the power.
Btw, I don't avoid contemplation anywhere near as much as you avoid sanity!
There is nothing permanent except change.
No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man.
Yeah, I for one was actually quite shocked to hear that.
You really have no answer for arguments presented, do you? What is it that never changes in all eternity? Anyways, I respect life enough not to put infants in jars to die of exposure unlike your hero of eternal values...and I wouldn't do it to ANY animal either if I want to avoid being conscience clobbered. Even Aristotle preferred abortion to infanticide!
...if I understood that, I’d voluntarily enroll myself into a lunatic asylum. The only thing I would know for sure, even under those circumstances, is that it’s only temporary.
Hopefully not the way you do!There is nothing permanent except change.
No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man.
Do you even know what this means?
How would you know what the concept ''temporary'' means ?
There is nothing permanent except change.
No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man.
Do you even know what this means?
Then please explain what it means to you..it's no good just saying, my way is not your way...that's like saying it's my way or the highway...how are we ever going to agree on anything with that mentality?
First of all we don't know what respect for life is any more than we know what life or justice are. We know that Plato believed in anamnesis or remembering what has been forgotten in relation to eternal values.Dubious wrote: ↑Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:20 amYou really have no answer for arguments presented, do you? What is it that never changes in all eternity? Anyways, I respect life enough not to put infants in jars to die of exposure unlike your hero of eternal values...and I wouldn't do it to ANY animal either if I want to avoid being conscience clobbered. Even Aristotle preferred abortion to infanticide!
In fairness to the ancients, they had their customs which to them seemed logical and very practical but to us criminal in the extreme. History is what it is! The Spartans, whom Plato admired, were even worse in their practice of infanticide and their treatment of boys who couldn't quite live up to the military training they were all subject to by the state starting age seven. Nevertheless it was agreed among the Greeks that the Spartans were the best looking among them!
It would seem grotesque and outright preposterous to Plato or any of the Greeks and Romans to regard life as sacred and even more irrational to acknowledge it as an eternal value. If you're as good in understanding Simone as you are of Plato then what follows are just your brain-dead distortions of them. Those you incessantly quote have no affiliation with your oxygen-starved interpretations of them often amounting to caricature!
