~ Animals Deserve to Have Rights ~

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

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Bill Wiltrack
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~ Animals Deserve to Have Rights ~

Post by Bill Wiltrack » Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:33 am

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We shouldn't have the right to kill them.

We shouldn't have the right to experiment upon them.

We shouldn't have the right to cage them nor destroy their natural habitat... Or declare war upon them.

We shouldn't eat them.



...what the hell are we?


Where is the humanity in being human?







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Greta
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Re: ~ Animals Deserve to Have Rights ~

Post by Greta » Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:42 am

We shouldn't have the right to kill them.
We ideally should not kill or harm more than is necessary for health and prosperity.

We shouldn't have the right to experiment upon them.
If there is a viable alternative.

We shouldn't have the right to cage them nor destroy their natural habitat...
Unless preserving species. Unfortunately, humans are needing habitats too.

Or declare war upon them.
Hopefully no one does.

We shouldn't eat them.
Peter Singer says so. I think we are working our way towards this, but we are still highly genetically predisposed to eat dead critters.


Also note that vegetarian diets kill animals too - clearing, harvesting and pest control.

A question for you, young William ... If your home became infested with rats or mice, would you approve of them being killed or losing their homes?

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Re: ~ Animals Deserve to Have Rights ~

Post by Philosophy Explorer » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:01 am

Bill Wiltrack wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:33 am
.





We shouldn't have the right to kill them.

We shouldn't have the right to experiment upon them.

We shouldn't have the right to cage them nor destroy their natural habitat... Or declare war upon them.

We shouldn't eat them.



...what the hell are we?


Where is the humanity in being human?







.
Why?

Humans are always in competition with other animals. Plus we have the right to survive. Therefore we can kill for survival. We owe other animals nothing except our charity

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Re: ~ Animals Deserve to Have Rights ~

Post by Philosophy Explorer » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:48 am

Greta wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:42 am
We shouldn't have the right to kill them.
We ideally should not kill or harm more than is necessary for health and prosperity.

We shouldn't have the right to experiment upon them.
If there is a viable alternative.

We shouldn't have the right to cage them nor destroy their natural habitat...
Unless preserving species. Unfortunately, humans are needing habitats too.

Or declare war upon them.
Hopefully no one does.

We shouldn't eat them.
Peter Singer says so. I think we are working our way towards this, but we are still highly genetically predisposed to eat dead critters.


Also note that vegetarian diets kill animals too - clearing, harvesting and pest control.

A question for you, young William ... If your home became infested with rats or mice, would you approve of them being killed or losing their homes?
I wonder what Bill would do if he had a rabid dog or cat in his home? Why does Bill think more of the lower animals than he does of humans? Has Bill forgotten he's human too?

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Greta
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Re: ~ Animals Deserve to Have Rights ~

Post by Greta » Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:13 am

I don't have a problem with him preferring other animals to humans, Phil.

Many more people make a far worse mistake in terms of realism and morality by completely dismissing the importance of animal suffering.

Edit: Fixed brain dead error :)
Last edited by Greta on Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: ~ Animals Deserve to Have Rights ~

Post by Philosophy Explorer » Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:21 am

Greta wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:13 am
I don't have a problem with him preferring other animals to humans, Spectrum.

Many more people make a far worse mistake in terms of realism and morality by completely dismissing the importance of animal suffering.
Animals should never suffer, on that I think all decent people can agree (are you confusing me with Spectrum?)

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Bill Wiltrack
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Re: ~ Animals Deserve to Have Rights ~

Post by Bill Wiltrack » Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:34 am

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In reply to the first poster, who asked me about the rats and mice in my home. Of course I would mitigate them.

And your point is very well taken. On a side note, NOT to diminish your initial point - because your point is overridingly correct and sound, but I have a couple cats, so...

More to your responses to my initial post - your opinions are more precise and rational than the premises that I threw-out there.

I credit you in adding a realistic edge to my initial statements. Thank you for adding needed rationality to my original post.

...and you added your comments in a civil and artistic way. THANK YOU for adding your voice.





To the second poster, immediate threats to one's life usually kicks-in our survival mode. And I'm not promoting a stance of being irrational. Quite the opposite.







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Re: ~ Animals Deserve to Have Rights ~

Post by Philosophy Explorer » Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:19 pm

Bill Wiltrack wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:33 am
.





We shouldn't have the right to kill them.

We shouldn't have the right to experiment upon them.

We shouldn't have the right to cage them nor destroy their natural habitat... Or declare war upon them.

We shouldn't eat them.



...what the hell are we?


Where is the humanity in being human?







.
To point out, all you've done is explain what rights humans should have in relationship to the animals. You haven't explained what rights animals should have nor why they should have them.

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Bill Wiltrack
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Re: ~ Animals Deserve to Have Rights ~

Post by Bill Wiltrack » Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:10 pm

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FYI - humans are animals.


I am speaking of empathy, I am speaking of humanity
in my original post.





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Re: ~ Animals Deserve to Have Rights ~

Post by Philosophy Explorer » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:34 pm

Bill Wiltrack wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:10 pm
.



FYI - humans are animals.


I am speaking of empathy, I am speaking of humanity
in my original post.


Your title isn't concerned with humans, just the lower forms of animal life. You misunderstood what I posted.

You're still dodging my question as to what rights the lower animals have and why they merit them? How did you arrive at these rights?

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Re: ~ Animals Deserve to Have Rights ~

Post by Bill Wiltrack » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:51 pm

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Not sure you understood my original post.

My OP has everything to do with human behavior. Our behavior towards what we consider to be lesser animals. Lesser than ourselves, whether that be humans or other living species.


* Re-read my original post & I think you will be pleasantly rewarded!

Good to know you are trying to understand & respond. PLEASE ask me if you have any other questions about this topic - if not, I would be happy to see your opinions once you understand the premise.





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Re: ~ Animals Deserve to Have Rights ~

Post by Philosophy Explorer » Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:03 pm

Bill Wiltrack wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:51 pm
.





Not sure you understood my original post.

My OP has everything to do with human behavior. Our behavior towards what we consider to be lesser animals. Lesser than ourselves, whether that be humans or other living species.


* Re-read my original post & I think you will be pleasantly rewarded!

Good to know you are trying to understand & respond. PLEASE ask me if you have any other questions about this topic - if not, I would be happy to see your opinions once you understand the premise.





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Being that these animals are lesser, does this entitle them to a different treatment by humans, e.g. killing them so that humans can survive? What right do they have to survive in competition with humans? Is it just you saying they have the right to survive? What is the authority that says they have a right to live?

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Re: ~ Animals Deserve to Have Rights ~

Post by Bill Wiltrack » Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:08 pm

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Actually, I presented a premise and a thesis. It would be insightful to obtain your opinion. How do you interpret what I have presented to the forum? Give your opinion some support and we can discuss in this forum-type setting.

Have confidence. I believe in you. If you are participating within this forum, odds are you are civil, respectful, and intelligent.

Perhaps you can begin a conversation.






.

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Re: ~ Animals Deserve to Have Rights ~

Post by Philosophy Explorer » Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:13 pm

Bill Wiltrack wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:08 pm
.





Actually, I presented a premise and a thesis. It would be insightful to obtain your opinion. How do you interpret what I have presented to the forum? Give your opinion some support and we can discuss in this forum-type setting.

Have confidence. I believe in you. If you are participating within this forum, odds are you are civil, respectful, and intelligent.

Perhaps you can begin a conversation.






.
When you respond to my questions.

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Greta
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Re: ~ Animals Deserve to Have Rights ~

Post by Greta » Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:07 am

Cheers Bill, and I agree - this is about empathy, understanding that other chordates will necessarily physically suffer in much the same way as we do. The smarter ones with more developed cortices will certainly suffer similarly to us when severely confined or treated roughly.
Philosophy Explorer wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:03 pm
Being that these animals are lesser, does this entitle them to a different treatment by humans, e.g. killing them so that humans can survive? What right do they have to survive in competition with humans? Is it just you saying they have the right to survive? What is the authority that says they have a right to live?
The concept of "lesser" is important. Some may claim that evolution is "a bush, not a tree" but there is a significant difference between killing microbes, grubs, insects, reptiles, birds, mammals and large intelligent mammals. The death of a cow is a far greater loss of complexity and order than the loss of an insect.

Yet we must compete with other species (I think a referee would have stopped that fight some time ago) and we must kill to live. Ideally, as with other things, our killing is not gratuitous, cruel or wasteful. We can always do better in this regard and I am optimistic that we will, especially as arable lands diminish and lab-grown meats are further developed to be ever more tasty, healthy and economic.

The transition is in a way not miles from the transition from oil to renewable energy. It takes time and there will always be resistance, but in the end it will simply be a matter of survival. Ideological politics and sabotage in these areas of development will increasingly give way to the need to survive.

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