Prostitution and Eternal Values

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Nick_A
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Prostitution and Eternal Values

Post by Nick_A » Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:41 pm

Does prostitution exist for those who do not recognize eternal values? By eternal values I mean “everlasting morals, enduring principle” which have always existed.

It has become acceptable in modern times to suggest that we create our own reality and values so by definition they have a pragmatic social origin. They are temporary in contrast with eternal values which are permanent.

From this perspective is it right to say that sexual prostitution no longer exists since there are no eternal values? We create our own values. If women or men are seen as prostitutes, aren’t they really just being themselves? How can a person prostitute themselves if they create their own reality and have nothing objective to prostitute? A man or woman cannot sell themselves cheaply since they are just being normal and have defined their own worth.

Should colleges ban the use of the word since like many other words, prostitution or the loss of objective human quality by selling oneself cheaply is now considered insulting and politically incorrect?

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Greta
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Re: Prostitution and Eternal Values

Post by Greta » Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:56 pm

Nick_A wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:41 pm
Does prostitution exist for those who do not recognize eternal values? By eternal values I mean “everlasting morals, enduring principle” which have always existed.

It has become acceptable in modern times to suggest that we create our own reality and values so by definition they have a pragmatic social origin. They are temporary in contrast with eternal values which are permanent.

From this perspective is it right to say that sexual prostitution no longer exists since there are no eternal values? We create our own values. If women or men are seen as prostitutes, aren’t they really just being themselves? How can a person prostitute themselves if they create their own reality and have nothing objective to prostitute? A man or woman cannot sell themselves cheaply since they are just being normal and have defined their own worth.

Should colleges ban the use of the word since like many other words, prostitution or the loss of objective human quality by selling oneself cheaply is now considered insulting and politically incorrect?
In other words, these people could be thought of as sub-human, certainly much less than Nick. If prostitutes are effectively deemed to be sub-human, then they cannot be expected to be human.

So therefore it must be morally okay to have sex with them. Therefore guilt need not be felt because that which one seemed to exploit had nothing of quality to exploit anyway.

// rationalisation

Nick_A
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Re: Prostitution and Eternal Values

Post by Nick_A » Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:22 pm

Greta, do you believe a person with no conception of eternal values can be a prostitute?

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Greta
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Re: Prostitution and Eternal Values

Post by Greta » Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:02 am

Nick_A wrote:Greta, do you believe a person with no conception of eternal values can be a prostitute?
I don't know as I don't tend to think about prostitution. Is the OP the impression you have gained through experience with prostitutes or are you theorising that someone of Nickesque qualities could never stoop to such base activities and thus would not be found in the profession?

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Prostitution and Eternal Values

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:44 am

Prostitution is merely the selling of one's body for monetary gain as a cause in itself. While the nature of prostitution is merely sexual, for both men and women, one could extend the definition, in one degree, to mercernary activity (or the use of the body as an instrument of force) conducive to a destructive act.

While prostitution denigrates the body merely to an objective means of pleasure, or under the extended definition I argue...as a means of destruction (which can also be a pleasure in itself), the problem of prostitution seems to be premised within the objectification itself. In simpler terms the human condition is limited to an objective reality where axiomatically we observe it inseperable from the subjective one.

While certain people joke, however truthfully, "that one pay's the prostitute not to stay but rather to leave" this premise observes an inherent division within the nature of human relation...ie the human condition is not only expendable but a problem. In certain respects it can be argued that prostitution is a problem of human intimacy, in which one party or both, simply does not care for the other's well-being at either the physical, spiritual or intellectual level.

In a separate respect, excessive intimacy, also places the nature of the relationship on a pedestal where the relationship itself is believed to be a "cure all end all of the problem". Under these terms excessive intimacy takes on the form of a vice through the means of "obsession" as a form of greed in which the relationship is determined strictly as a power place, usually passive aggressively, as a form of dominance.

In these respects both prostitution and certain relationships take on the manner of a vice, with one side arguing against the vice of the other and ignoring their own inherent problems.

So does prostitution affect the "eternal value systems"? Yes, in the respect that is reduces the human being to an animal-like status without an recourse to the natural and divine faculties within the human condition.

However can a relationship also affect the "eternal value systems"? Yes, in the respect it also reduced the human being to an objective means of fulfillment by elevating them to something other than what the human condition is, only a divine nature.

Under these two extremes, the most proper recourse appears to be sexual activity as a form of quasi-marriage, in which both individuals engage in an act of physical procreation in one end, while subjectively caring for the "needs", not "wants" of the other. The sexual activity, in turn, provides a means of "unification" rather than separation while observing each person for inherently what they are: both animal and divine.

The problem of prostitution, and even certain relationships, is rooted in the nature of extremes which inevitably result in the draining of one's physical, spiritual, or sexual resources.

Considering the human constitution is generally divided into one of mind, body, and intellect sexual activity should be able to maintain a balance between these different dimensions.

Should an individual have the right to determine what happens to their body? Yes. However should man and women be viewed as caretakers of the other? Yes.

Should prostitution be made illegal? Are abusive relationships illegal? What seperates abuse as self-abuse or community abuse? What differs abuse from a strictly physical manner from one that is psychological?

Considering state politics inevitably observes a movement between extremes, the illegality of prostitution can cause a rise in prostitution down the time-line of that government system and may inadvertadly cause the problem it seeks to avoid. In a separate respect making prostitution legal can cause a lack of social cohesion, by provide a means for people to break familial ties.

In simpler terms, the best manner to deal with prostitution is not to address it but rather place state financial and ethical standards that promote both state and familial ties. Certain "problems" can only be addressed not directly but rather by finding a means to move past them while retaining the dignity of the individual and collective whole.

Is the problem prostitution, or a lack of social cohesion in general?

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Conde Lucanor
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Re: Prostitution and Eternal Values

Post by Conde Lucanor » Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:57 am

Nick_A wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:41 pm
Does prostitution exist for those who do not recognize eternal values? By eternal values I mean “everlasting morals, enduring principle” which have always existed.
If values were eternal, how come they would need to be recognized? That would make them optional and therefore, contingent. If they are contingent, they could not be eternal.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Prostitution and Eternal Values

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:02 am

Conde Lucanor wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:57 am
Nick_A wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:41 pm
Does prostitution exist for those who do not recognize eternal values? By eternal values I mean “everlasting morals, enduring principle” which have always existed.
If values were eternal, how come they would need to be recognized? That would make them optional and therefore, contingent. If they are contingent, they could not be eternal.
Not if observation is eternal. This is considering if one would look at the root of observation it fundamentally a process of measurement conducive to the application, maintainence, and receiving of dimensions. The dimensions, in turn, exist fundamentally strictly the direction of spatial symmetry, through intradimensional and extradimensional means, as points and lines which give structure not only to objective realities but subjective ones (emotions) as well by determining the boundaries which give structure as a form of meaning in itself.

In simpler terms, we cannot argue observation ends for observation observes infinity as a concept, hence what we understand of reasoning is an eternal process. Under these premises, one could argue, that the "eternal value system" is one of reason through proportion as justice which maintains balance as a causal act of existence.

seeds
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Re: Prostitution and Eternal Values

Post by seeds » Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:05 am

Nick_A wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:41 pm
Does prostitution exist for those who do not recognize eternal values? By eternal values I mean “everlasting morals, enduring principle” which have always existed.
Prostitution can come in many forms.

To slightly mirror what Eodnhoj7 stated in the first paragraph of his first post, what’s the difference between a human selling their body to another human to be used for pleasure, and that of a human selling their body to the state (as in the military) to be used for murder and mayhem?

In the higher (Platonic? Kantian?) scheme of reality, which of those two choices is less moral than the other?

In other words, how could the morality of a prostitute of sexual pleasure be lower than the morality of a prostitute soldier who just slaughtered a group of innocent women and children?

Yet the prostitute of sex is pilloried and imprisoned while the prostitute of murder and mayhem is hailed a hero.

Does no one see a problem with that scenario?
_______

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Conde Lucanor
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Re: Prostitution and Eternal Values

Post by Conde Lucanor » Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:12 am

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:02 am
Conde Lucanor wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:57 am
Nick_A wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:41 pm
Does prostitution exist for those who do not recognize eternal values? By eternal values I mean “everlasting morals, enduring principle” which have always existed.
If values were eternal, how come they would need to be recognized? That would make them optional and therefore, contingent. If they are contingent, they could not be eternal.
Not if observation is eternal.
Observation implies the observer and the sense organs involved in perception. They are always embodied in conscious agents, which are also contingent beings, not eternal. So, observation is not eternal and the rest of the nonsense you wrote can be dismissed.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Prostitution and Eternal Values

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:17 am

seeds wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:05 am
Nick_A wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:41 pm
Does prostitution exist for those who do not recognize eternal values? By eternal values I mean “everlasting morals, enduring principle” which have always existed.
Prostitution can come in many forms.

To slightly mirror what Eodnhoj7 stated in the first paragraph of his first post, what’s the difference between a human selling their body to another human to be used for pleasure, and that of human selling their body to the state (as in the military) to be used for murder and mayhem?

In the higher (Platonic? Kantian?) scheme of reality, which of those two choices is less moral than the other?

In other words, how could the morality of a prostitute of sexual pleasure be lower than the morality of a prostitute soldier who just slaughtered a group of innocent women and children?

Yet the prostitute of sex is pilloried and imprisoned while the prostitute of murder and mayhem is hailed a hero.

Does no one see a problem with that scenario?
_______
Death of the spirit and death of the body are both deaths regardless, hence prostitution and warfare can be conducive to different degrees of murder, with the causal vice being one of greed or possession.

You are right about the hypocrisy of the state, but war under certain circumstance is justified as a means to survival as a necessary evil. Prostitution can follow this same format as a necessary evil in itself under certain circumstances. The problem breaks down largely, but not limit to, state ethical standards as an expression of the populace.

Political structures, are much like organisms, they thrive in virtue at first then the same virtues they premise the institution on back-fire in the timeline and cause the institution to die and provide the "fertilizer", as a form of foundation for another system.

The solution, to both prostitution and war, seems to be premised on the rationalization of the value systems inherent with the state zeitgeist itself. The decay is inevitable, the question is one of how to control the rate of decay to promulgate it across time. Under these terms, the metaphysics that determines the political institutions life space plays a direct cause to the nature of the institutions life-span.

If memory serves, Plato (inspired by Pythagoras), observed the state should have direct influence over the nature of the culture (in the example I am thinking of he was referencing types of music) because that culture provides the grounds for that states existence. Metaphysics cannot be separated from political power. We can observe this somewhat in the decay of western society.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Prostitution and Eternal Values

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:18 am

Conde Lucanor wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:12 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:02 am
Conde Lucanor wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:57 am

If values were eternal, how come they would need to be recognized? That would make them optional and therefore, contingent. If they are contingent, they could not be eternal.
Not if observation is eternal.
Observation implies the observer and the sense organs involved in perception. They are always embodied in conscious agents, which are also contingent beings, not eternal. So, observation is not eternal and the rest of the nonsense you wrote can be dismissed.
So by default, under those standards of logic, your observation will eventually be untrue?

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Conde Lucanor
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Re: Prostitution and Eternal Values

Post by Conde Lucanor » Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:33 am

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:18 am
Conde Lucanor wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:12 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:02 am


Not if observation is eternal.
Observation implies the observer and the sense organs involved in perception. They are always embodied in conscious agents, which are also contingent beings, not eternal. So, observation is not eternal and the rest of the nonsense you wrote can be dismissed.
So by default, under those standards of logic, your observation will eventually be untrue?
My observation will be judged, either as true or untrue.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Prostitution and Eternal Values

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:35 am

Conde Lucanor wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:33 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:18 am
Conde Lucanor wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:12 am

Observation implies the observer and the sense organs involved in perception. They are always embodied in conscious agents, which are also contingent beings, not eternal. So, observation is not eternal and the rest of the nonsense you wrote can be dismissed.
So by default, under those standards of logic, your observation will eventually be untrue?
My observation will be judged, either as true or untrue.
But if that judgement passes, according to your logic, does that means your observation ceases to exist eventually?

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Conde Lucanor
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Re: Prostitution and Eternal Values

Post by Conde Lucanor » Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:12 am

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:35 am
Conde Lucanor wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:33 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:18 am


So by default, under those standards of logic, your observation will eventually be untrue?
My observation will be judged, either as true or untrue.
But if that judgement passes, according to your logic, does that means your observation ceases to exist eventually?
With regards to myself, my observations cease to exist with me. With regards to others, my observations, which they only get to know by way of my expressions, stay in their memories or in the physical records where they might have been stored. They'll be gone when all of these cease to exist, too. That's why archaeologists have a job: the dig out the lost memories, if any remain.

Nick_A
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Re: Prostitution and Eternal Values

Post by Nick_A » Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:20 am

Greta wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:56 pm
Nick_A wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:41 pm
Does prostitution exist for those who do not recognize eternal values? By eternal values I mean “everlasting morals, enduring principle” which have always existed.

It has become acceptable in modern times to suggest that we create our own reality and values so by definition they have a pragmatic social origin. They are temporary in contrast with eternal values which are permanent.

From this perspective is it right to say that sexual prostitution no longer exists since there are no eternal values? We create our own values. If women or men are seen as prostitutes, aren’t they really just being themselves? How can a person prostitute themselves if they create their own reality and have nothing objective to prostitute? A man or woman cannot sell themselves cheaply since they are just being normal and have defined their own worth.

Should colleges ban the use of the word since like many other words, prostitution or the loss of objective human quality by selling oneself cheaply is now considered insulting and politically incorrect?
In other words, these people could be thought of as sub-human, certainly much less than Nick. If prostitutes are effectively deemed to be sub-human, then they cannot be expected to be human.

So therefore it must be morally okay to have sex with them. Therefore guilt need not be felt because that which one seemed to exploit had nothing of quality to exploit anyway.

// rationalisation

You misunderstand. Are the people in Plato’s cave sub-human or are they just asleep to reality from being attached to the shadows on the wall?


What are eternal values? According to the Bible the Tree of the Knowledge of
Good and Evil existed in the garden before Man’s appearance. That means the good and its associated eternal values concerning humanity pre-dated Man on earth. Eternal values must be centered around human conscious evolution towards wholeness . There were no subjective values at this time. That is the objective good for Man. Objective evil is what allows psychological attachment to fragmentation to deny conscious evolution towards wholeness. In short Man becomes unable to “remember” the forest (wholeness) by being attached to the trees (fragmentation)


If you are familiar with Plato’s Chariot you know that the dark horse associated with our bodies or the lower parts of our collective essence keeps pulling us down into corruption and illusion which prevents our normal conscious development. That is the objective objection to sexual prostitution. The energies associated with sex are of a very high quality and when they are guided by the higher parts of our collective essence, they aid in the normal development of human consciousness. However when they become used by all sorts of negative emotion, then a person is limited to the imaginary life in Plato’s cave.


It is obvious that the question of prostitution discussed in secular society is limited to temporary secular concerns justified by the belief in creating our own reality. However, there are a minority who feel their body is objectively worth more as they are drawn to objective human meaning and purpose. The body wasn’t called the temple of the Holy Spirit for no reason. So if its sex energies are useful for higher purpose but easily used by negative emotions, some are unwilling to prostitute themselves and sacrifice something important for the proverbial 30 pieces of silver.


It’s not a matter of being sub-human but rather the conscious potential for the Old man becoming the New Man through conscious evolution.

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