Virgin Birth Myths

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seeds
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Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Post by seeds »

Nick_A wrote: Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:32 pm What I find unfortunate is that no one here seems to be able to provide even an intellectual explanation for the process beginning with the immaculate conception and concluding with the virgin birth. If no one can do it, how can the idea be contemplated? Maybe Oprah knows
I'm pretty sure that this is not the direction that Belinda was hoping to go with her thread, nevertheless (and speculatively speaking), let’s look at your issue from the perspective of Berkeleyan idealism.

If the entire universe is the literal mind of a Being who possesses absolute dominion and control over every micro and macro aspect of the fabric of its reality...

...then mentally extracting a sperm from Joseph and then mentally implanting into one of Mary’s eggs would be a breeze.

Thus a virgin conception and birth is achieved minus all of the messy and “un-immaculate” processes.

Now I’m not suggesting that that is what literally took place, I am merely offering up an explanation of how it could be possible.
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Dubious
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Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Post by Dubious »

...the problem being there is zero probability for such an IF beyond that supplied by pure imagination which can invent anything it likes to justify a conclusion.
Nick_A
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Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Post by Nick_A »

seeds wrote: Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:11 pm
Nick_A wrote: Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:32 pm What I find unfortunate is that no one here seems to be able to provide even an intellectual explanation for the process beginning with the immaculate conception and concluding with the virgin birth. If no one can do it, how can the idea be contemplated? Maybe Oprah knows
I'm pretty sure that this is not the direction that Belinda was hoping to go with her thread, nevertheless (and speculatively speaking), let’s look at your issue from the perspective of Berkeleyan idealism.

If the entire universe is the literal mind of a Being who possesses absolute dominion and control over every micro and macro aspect of the fabric of its reality...

...then mentally extracting a sperm from Joseph and then mentally implanting into one of Mary’s eggs would be a breeze.

Thus a virgin conception and birth is achieved minus all of the messy and “un-immaculate” processes.

Now I’m not suggesting that that is what literally took place, I am merely offering up an explanation of how it could be possible.
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The trouble is that it is not intellectually satisfying. If such a being controls everything, what purpose does the universe serve? Why should the universe exist in the first place? An intellectual explanation or foundation for explanations has to be open to basic questions or it is only fantasy.
seeds
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Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Post by seeds »

Dubious wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:27 am ...pure imagination...can invent anything...
...and that includes a universe.

Finally we agree on something...

...(brought to you by the Bureau for Quoting Out of Context :P).

“Zero” probability? Really?

Btw, is that zero probability of reality being mind-based?

Or is it zero probability of there being anything higher in consciousness than humans?

Or is it zero probability that we both could be wrong in our assessments?
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seeds
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Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Post by seeds »

Nick_A wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:53 am The trouble is that it is not intellectually satisfying. If such a being controls everything, what purpose does the universe serve?
Good lord, Nick, I have extensively covered this with you in other threads.

Now I am not suggesting that I can't be wrong, but the purpose of the universe, aside from its obvious beauty and majesty, is that it is the means through-which its living Creator replicates itself by conceiving its literal “offspring” (us) within itself...

...(an “immaculate conception” at the highest level of reality).
Nick_A wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:53 am Why should the universe exist in the first place?
It exists because for some reason beyond our present comprehension, it is an achievable phenomenon.
Nick_A wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:53 am An intellectual explanation or foundation for explanations has to be open to basic questions or it is only fantasy.
Right now, “fantasy” (speculation/imaginative guesswork) is pretty much all we have to work with.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Post by Dontaskme »

seeds wrote: Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:11 pm
If the entire universe is the literal mind of a Being who possesses absolute dominion and control over every micro and macro aspect of the fabric of its reality...

...then mentally extracting a sperm from Joseph and then mentally implanting into one of Mary’s eggs would be a breeze.

Thus a virgin conception and birth is achieved minus all of the messy and “un-immaculate” processes.

Now I’m not suggesting that that is what literally took place, I am merely offering up an explanation of how it could be possible.
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I absolutely love this reply.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Post by Dontaskme »

Nick_A wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:53 am

The trouble is that it is not intellectually satisfying. If such a being controls everything, what purpose does the universe serve? Why should the universe exist in the first place? An intellectual explanation or foundation for explanations has to be open to basic questions or it is only fantasy.
There is no being controlling anything. There's just spontaneous beingness one without a second expressing itself infinitely for eternity. Reality is a phantom appearing real.

There is no purpose in reality, the only purpose is what the phantom that appears to be real puts there...aka imagination...aka the dreamer.

Reality doesn't need a purpose to be what it is...everything else is just a phantom conceptual overlay over no-thing...aka the dream.

If there was a being controlling everything, then that being would be able to control what is only ever just happening to no one...and stop it happening before it happens, but that is not what's happening as you very well know.

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Belinda
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Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Post by Belinda »

The ancient Greek goddess Hera is the wife of the king of the gods, Zeus. However she is probably much more ancient than Zeus and a vestige of the goddess era when the female was more powerful than the male. Male supremacy is a comparatively late arrival due to changes in modes of survival.

The Holy Mother is the opposite of the ancient woman goddess.The Holy Virgin is completely quiescent towards the male God of creation who impregnated her; as she herself said, she was God's handmaiden. She has been allocated a role as intercessor with God, but never can she be as powerful as her son, or God the Father.

It's worth remarking that Mary had a boy-child, not a girl-child.As far as I know there is no virgin birth myth where the baby was a female.

True, there have been powerful women in history, such as Queen Elizabeth the First but she had to assume the mantle of kingship, of being an honorary man, as her famous speech at Tilbury to her troops demonstrates. Among certain tribal societies the old woman is accorded the senior status of honorary man.

I am thinking that the recent upsurge of interest in gender rights, notably the spate of complaints against male chauvinism especially rape, may be very significant of a change towards equality of power allocation and equal allocation of mutual respect in human relationships. This new culture will involve dispensing with virgin birth myths especially the Christian one where the Holy Mother is totally passive.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Post by Dontaskme »

Belinda wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:11 am
It's worth remarking that Mary had a boy-child, not a girl-child.As far as I know there is no virgin birth myth where the baby was a female.

The male gender of the child was a metaphorical equal representation of the sire Father aka Sophia... aka complimentary opposites, equal to each other.

Beingness is actually genderless.

It's complicated... :roll:
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Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Post by Belinda »

Dontaskme wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:16 am
Belinda wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:11 am
It's worth remarking that Mary had a boy-child, not a girl-child.As far as I know there is no virgin birth myth where the baby was a female.

The male gender of the child was a metaphorical equal representation of the sire Father aka Sophia... aka complimentary opposites, equal to each other.

Beingness is actually genderless.

It's complicated... :roll:
You have it there, Dont Ask!
Being is genderless, yes, but we humans are not simply beings but are beings who need to make sense of the world into which we are thrown.

The power imbalance between men and women has been one way in which societies have tried to understand being. I am suggesting that this power imbalance as illustrated by the Christian Virgin Birth myth is now in process of evening up.

Genderless Sophia is a lot older than the BVM and in modern times is a survival of the old old Feminine.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Post by Dontaskme »

Belinda wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:28 am You have it there, Dont Ask!
Being is genderless, yes, but we humans are not simply beings but are beings who need to make sense of the world into which we are thrown.
On a human level, yes, we seek to understand our self as we appear to feel like we are separated from source...albeit illusory separation.

There is no one living life, it lives itself one without a second, and part of that dynamic is the human experience.

We live on the edge of not-knowing, the razors edge of creation...everything else is just an imagined made up cock and bull story, nothing to get hung over...although we do like being attached to the story and is why life for no one seems to go on, it's endless.

Only when we are absolutely silent do we discover our self for the very first time....everything else is God in drag.
Dubious
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Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Post by Dubious »

Dubious wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:27 am...pure imagination...can invent anything...
seeds wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:03 am...and that includes a universe.
Why not! We're free to imagine anything we like but in this universe we first strive to discover what nature imagined and actually created. While much of that can seem miraculous it doesn't perform miracles as we usually apply the word....though you may disagree with that.
seeds wrote:Btw, is that zero probability of reality being mind-based?
However you dichotomize it, minds are reality-based. Structures of the latter had to precede the former to be forged in the first place. I like to keep things in sequence! :)
seeds wrote:Or is it zero probability of there being anything higher in consciousness than humans?
I could never accept that conclusion as a zero probability since we don't know what nature can produce by way of consciousness or to what degree.
seeds wrote:Or is it zero probability that we both could be wrong in our assessments?
It's not really a matter of right or wrong but of how observation engenders truth in terms of probability.
Belinda
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Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Post by Belinda »

Seeds wrote to Nick:
I'm pretty sure that this is not the direction that Belinda was hoping to go with her thread,
You say right, Seeds!

It seems that Nick cannot contemplate the nature of myth as a poetic allegory about humans living in the world.
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Bill Wiltrack
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Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Post by Bill Wiltrack »

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...so, guys girlfriend, who he has NEVER had sex with, is having a baby. Three black dudes show-up with presents...Think I saw this plot in a porno once...






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Arising_uk
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Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Post by Arising_uk »

Dontaskme wrote:The immaculate conception is not a myth. ...
Actually you're right, it's clearly a mistranslation.
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