Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We must do evil.

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Re: Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We must do evil.

Post by -1- » Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:43 am

attofishpi wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:01 am
Ok, don't commit suicide over it, you might find you are resurrected, and that's a real pisser.
Thanks for the advice, Attofishpi. I think you're right. I promise I won't commit suicide. I'll just cut off my little finger. And maybe the ring finger on my left foot.

I dunno.

Or instead of cutting them off, I'll send a deluge over them. That ought to learn me a lesson.

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Re: Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We must do evil.

Post by Greatest I am » Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:51 pm

-1- wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:41 pm
Hi, DL, after the huge blunder that I made, I think the only gentlemanly thing for me to do is cease and desist in these two forum threads.
If you have gotten what you wanted from the thread, to agree or disagree and make your case, then sure.

To just take off out of shame, would be you showing a thin skin. Best to let a mistake run off you like water off a ducks back. You should have seen some of my gaffs, and the ones I will do in the future.

Look around and see that you are more fit to be in the forum than many. Many are too stupid or vain to admit fault but I think it a sign of intelligence and couth. You got ball son is what my dad would say.

Learning something new is one of the great pleasures in live. I argue to lose, not to win. You just lost one from the sounds of it so take that great pleasure.
I did think of "if not human logic, then what logic?" but the issue was not logic, the debating opponent was not using the right word, it was not logic that was "human" vs. "godly" but a biological process.
He used the wrong word, "human logic" instead of "human or biological process", so my argument would have been futile, because it was not logic actually that was at stake.
If the goal is to convert him to your rules of thought, then you first have to play with his ball if you want to play in his field. Many misuse language. Sometimes it is critical to the discussion and sometimes a deflection on your part will work better than a frontal attack. It depends on if your interlocutor is worth your time or not.
Sorry, good buddy, but this I mucked up, and I mucked up good. Mucked up all good and proper. No sense in trying to backpedal out of it. I made a mistake, and the best is to admit to it. I wish others would be able to do that, but hey, I'm me, that's why they are others, and they are not me, that's why they are others.
If you have put your ideas out here to your satisfaction, then tip of the hat as you leave.

If you have more to give and do not, shame on you.

Regards
DL

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Re: Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We must do evil.

Post by Greatest I am » Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:33 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:40 pm
Greatest I am wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:54 pm
Sorry buddy.

You made some points that might be worth chatting about but you have mixed what I put in response to our friend and are speaking more to his view than mine.

======

You seemed to get off track here.

My-----
" Because I believe both to be real concepts, I reject your view."

Your ---
"How is nothingness "real" when"

========

I did not say nothingness was real.

I will say that nothingness is a real concept and that that concept might apply only between sub atomic particles.
Blue work?

Anyhow:

How do you seperate a concept from reality?


If you take concepts out of reality, then they no longer exist. Why would you want to do that?

Nothingness is a concept that says that there is nothing somewhere. Nothing being empty space.

If there is no empty space and it was proven then it would be fine to scrap the concept and remove it from reality, but leaving the squashed concept in reality would mean that we will save other people the waste of their time on trying to prove the concept of nothingness over and over again. Saving all that waste of time is worth a lot.

How would Yoda say this.

Knowing what is or is not, tells us what is or is not.

Assuming thoughts are based in a material reality,


A good assumption. I think they are.

then the sub atomic particles we reflect upon are merely the same sub-atomic particles reflecting upon themselves...with thought (or concept) simply be a symmetry through reflection.


I think so, yes, if I understand your use of "symmetry through reflection".

In these respect the "concept" itself is based upon an inherent rotational symmetry...hence why most axioms are circular in reasoning and premised either in paradox or contradiction.


I do not agree with this. Perhaps there is some rotational feedback or circular reasoning in some ideas but most axioms, I think, have a starting point and an end point.

You see, not to play word games, the ability to separate dimensions of reality (measurements) such as concepts, causes a precedent for further separation and we get a continual progression of "branching" arguments based upon a linearism which infinitely approaches an irrational nature (in quantitative terms point zero).


Ouch, my head. I am not as educated as you are.
You are saying, I think, that answers lead to more questions. I agree but do not see that as irrational.

Truth as viewing things in unity gives a different perspective to how we view the answers.


For sure.

You also put ----
"While good does not require evil as necessary for good to exist"

Good and evil are dualistic concepts. One cannot be considered without the other because if we are to quantify good, the graph we write would have to have something at the other end. We could call that least good if we wanted to but the world evil already exists and the opposite of good on our graph should be designated as evil.

Quantifying "good" and "evil" from strictly a numerical perspective has the qualitative problem of "why"? What moral imperative is there to quantify a qualitative nature...unless quantity and quality are strictly extensions of each other through another median.


Good and evil are subjective judgement calls. The why will be different for all so what we have collectively decided to do is set the standard to seek the greatest good for the greatest number of us.

That may be instinctive as the fittest will be the most gregarious so that he might hide in and be protected by the masses. Our selfish gene at work.

As to the quantitative version of your argument...Can 1 be observed without 0? Yes. Can 0 be observed without 1? No.


I think I see what you mean and agree.

Some of your other points are so off topic I do not feel inclined to speak to them.

If we cannot agree on terms like good and evil then communicating will be a bitch.

If you had a particular point you wanted me to address, please put it in it's own post.

Regards
DL

P.S. Red is really hard on my eyes on my computer. Please use another color.


If any of what I put sounds really odd, it is because I am French, not English, and I am doing my best with this awkward language. Being self educated is a bitch.

Regards
DL


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Re: Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We must do evil.

Post by Greatest I am » Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:40 pm

attofishpi wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:59 pm
Greatest I am wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:49 pm
attofishpi wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:07 pm


DOGMA? AM_GOD. www.androcies.com

I'm a Christian. I believe in the life and teachings of Christ. What don't I tolerate? Show me something that is green where in the bible it says it is red, thus I must believe the buy bull.

Don't tar everyone with the same brush as the Greatest nitwit does.
If you are a Christian then you believe that Yahweh is a good God. Right?

How do you get to that point when considering that God is portrayed as a genocidal God who kills so much when he could cure just as easily?
God is extremely hard to understand...and it IS NOT ALL GOOD.
I've no doubt that the God that has interacted with me for the past 20yrs is the same God that had interactions with the likes of Moses, Abraham, various witch doctors in Africa, various Hindu teachers etc etc etc..

God has been THE most evil thing to ever have happened to me. 'IT' does not fuck around where one has committed indiscretions in the past, and continues to live a life not on the path 'IT' wants one to live. It TESTS in the most evil way. TEST-A-MEN-T
[/quote]

First. Do try to separate fact from fiction.

Moses is fiction.

http://www.raceandhistory.com/historica ... exodus.htm

Second, look up Jung and Freud's Father complex. If there is any testing going on in you, it is you doing it and not some fictional character.

Only you can know how you want to live. Screw the Gods. You are the only God you can ever know. Lead him. Do not follow him, as you are likely more moral and better than the fictitious Gods on offer.

Regards
DL

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Re: Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We must do evil.

Post by attofishpi » Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:10 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:40 pm
attofishpi wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:59 pm
Greatest I am wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:49 pm


If you are a Christian then you believe that Yahweh is a good God. Right?

How do you get to that point when considering that God is portrayed as a genocidal God who kills so much when he could cure just as easily?
God is extremely hard to understand...and it IS NOT ALL GOOD.
I've no doubt that the God that has interacted with me for the past 20yrs is the same God that had interactions with the likes of Moses, Abraham, various witch doctors in Africa, various Hindu teachers etc etc etc..

God has been THE most evil thing to ever have happened to me. 'IT' does not fuck around where one has committed indiscretions in the past, and continues to live a life not on the path 'IT' wants one to live. It TESTS in the most evil way. TEST-A-MEN-T
First. Do try to separate fact from fiction.

Moses is fiction.

http://www.raceandhistory.com/historica ... exodus.htm

Second, look up Jung and Freud's Father complex. If there is any testing going on in you, it is you doing it and not some fictional character.

Only you can know how you want to live. Screw the Gods. You are the only God you can ever know. Lead him. Do not follow him, as you are likely more moral and better than the fictitious Gods on offer.

Regards
DL
[/quote]

Shut up dickhead - stop trying to preach your total lack of comprehension to me.

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Re: Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We must do evil.

Post by Greatest I am » Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:22 pm

attofishpi wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:10 pm
Greatest I am wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:40 pm
attofishpi wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:59 pm


God is extremely hard to understand...and it IS NOT ALL GOOD.
I've no doubt that the God that has interacted with me for the past 20yrs is the same God that had interactions with the likes of Moses, Abraham, various witch doctors in Africa, various Hindu teachers etc etc etc..

God has been THE most evil thing to ever have happened to me. 'IT' does not fuck around where one has committed indiscretions in the past, and continues to live a life not on the path 'IT' wants one to live. It TESTS in the most evil way. TEST-A-MEN-T
First. Do try to separate fact from fiction.

Moses is fiction.

http://www.raceandhistory.com/historica ... exodus.htm

Second, look up Jung and Freud's Father complex. If there is any testing going on in you, it is you doing it and not some fictional character.

Only you can know how you want to live. Screw the Gods. You are the only God you can ever know. Lead him. Do not follow him, as you are likely more moral and better than the fictitious Gods on offer.

Regards
DL
Shut up dickhead - stop trying to preach your total lack of comprehension to me.
[/quote]

If you want that, get out of my yard/O.P. a hole.

I am not the one believing in imaginary characters and ignoring his betters.

Regards
DL

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Re: Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We must do evil.

Post by -1- » Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:51 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:51 pm

If you have gotten what you wanted from the thread, to agree or disagree and make your case, then sure.
It's not a question of getting from the thread, but giving to the thread.

I am more of a writer than a reader.

So I wrote already what I wanted to write: If a belief system declares that everything has originated in from one particular thing, then everything in existence is a willful creation of that one thing.

Whether the creations be good or bad, evil or not. If something is evil, like Satan or the Devil in Christianity, it still comes from the very same one creator, and the creator is ultimately responsible for the evil's existence, since it came from the creator.

There is not a thing they can say against that. But they still won't acknowledge that this is true, the Christians won't.

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Re: Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We must do evil.

Post by -1- » Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:00 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:51 pm
If the goal is to convert him to your rules of thought,
DL
No, I am not trying to change anyone's rules. There is only one rule I recognize: logical thought, logical and consistent reasoning. It is the destination of other's train of thought which I want to put on the right track: If you follow logic, then certain things must follow, and certain things can't follow from a set of axioms / a set of hypotheses / a set of premisses.

The rules don't change. The faulty rule adherence must be repared, once the premisses are agreed to be the same.

In this case, the premis is that there is one creator from which all things come. Another premise is that evil exist. The conclusion I draw with the right logic, is that evil comes from the creator. The faulty reasoning is that evil does not come from the creator, in this instance from the Christian god, because it is infinitely good.

Something has to give: either god is not infinitely good, or else the devil does not originate in the creator. But the evil does originate in the creator. Therefore the creator is not infinitely good.

It is not possible for a Christian to go that far, and yet the roads of logic unerringly lead to that conclusion.

What can I do? I preach the word of logic.

Logos cortinam upse lego vindere.

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Re: Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We must do evil.

Post by Greatest I am » Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:02 pm

-1- wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:51 pm
Greatest I am wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:51 pm

If you have gotten what you wanted from the thread, to agree or disagree and make your case, then sure.
It's not a question of getting from the thread, but giving to the thread.

I am more of a writer than a reader.

So I wrote already what I wanted to write: If a belief system declares that everything has originated in from one particular thing, then everything in existence is a willful creation of that one thing.

Whether the creations be good or bad, evil or not. If something is evil, like Satan or the Devil in Christianity, it still comes from the very same one creator, and the creator is ultimately responsible for the evil's existence, since it came from the creator.

There is not a thing they can say against that. But they still won't acknowledge that this is true, the Christians won't.
I hear you and agree that there was a first cause.

My money is on evolution as it explains all the human to human evil quite nicely.

Both religion and science have reached a point where both now have a God of the Gaps, so to speak. Religions put a God there while science puts a region where all the physics math breaks down.

Science posits a number of theories for other dimensions with math, anything from 6 to 18 if memory serves, that word for that varying number of dimensions and seem to have stalled for now. Hence their God of the Gaps.

Thanks for the chat buddy.

Regards
DL

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Re: Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We must do evil.

Post by Greatest I am » Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:04 pm

-1- wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:00 pm
Greatest I am wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:51 pm
If the goal is to convert him to your rules of thought,
DL
No, I am not trying to change anyone's rules. There is only one rule I recognize: logical thought, logical and consistent reasoning. It is the destination of other's train of thought which I want to put on the right track: If you follow logic, then certain things must follow, and certain things can't follow from a set of axioms / a set of hypotheses / a set of premisses.

The rules don't change. The faulty rule adherence must be repared, once the premisses are agreed to be the same.

In this case, the premis is that there is one creator from which all things come. Another premise is that evil exist. The conclusion I draw with the right logic, is that evil comes from the creator. The faulty reasoning is that evil does not come from the creator, in this instance from the Christian god, because it is infinitely good.

Something has to give: either god is not infinitely good, or else the devil does not originate in the creator. But the evil does originate in the creator. Therefore the creator is not infinitely good.

It is not possible for a Christian to go that far, and yet the roads of logic unerringly lead to that conclusion.

What can I do? I preach the word of logic.

Logos cortinam upse lego vindere.
In this, we are two.

Regards
DL

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Re: Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We must do evil.

Post by -1- » Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:13 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:02 pm

I hear you and agree that there was a first cause.

My money is on evolution as it explains all the human to human evil quite nicely.

Both religion and science have reached a point where both now have a God of the Gaps, so to speak. Religions put a God there while science puts a region where all the physics math breaks down.

Science posits a number of theories for other dimensions with math, anything from 6 to 18 if memory serves, that word for that varying number of dimensions and seem to have stalled for now. Hence their God of the Gaps.

Thanks for the chat buddy.

Regards
DL
It is a small step in reasoning, but a huge leap of faith to pot God in the gaps of Science.

God is by definition supernatural. Science accepts no supernatural elements in its hypotheses and reasoning.

It is true that scientists say "an audimlopodeus(*) is a sub-atomic particle that is responsible for the gravitational field. All we have to do is find it." This is not the same as to say "a god is in the picture, his hand is working in our experiments as an unknown, all we need to do is find how to see his hand."

(*) ficitional, thought-up word

In other words, I accept that both god-based religions and scientific research have gaps; but while religions fill the gaps with god, science fills the gap with hypotheses; which can be proven wrong or accepted as right, but nevertheless scientists fill the gaps with something that they hope to examine or learn how to examine. This is NOT the same as a god. In other words, a gap is not a gap is not a gap. (Reference to "a rose is a rose is a rose".)

Check your best friends' sister, mother, and grandmother, if you want to see how true this "gap" comparison is.

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Re: Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We must do evil.

Post by Greatest I am » Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:26 pm

I agree with your definition on the science God of the Gaps. My "so to speak" was intended to convey that.

That is why I spoke of the various theories of the number of dimensions.

My poor writing skills.

Regards
DL

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Re: Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We must do evil.

Post by -1- » Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:26 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:02 pm
My money is on evolution as it explains all the human to human evil quite nicely.
Regards
DL
My money is on evolution, too.

Evil is relative. It is a biology thing: whatever hurts me or my interests, is evil, whatever does not hurt me in any way, is not evil.

In any exchange which is not equitable, evil happens to one party, and a non-evil happens to another party. If a lion fells a gazelle, it's evil to the gazelle, but not evil to the lion. It is evil of me from your perspective to invade France, but in my perspective, Napoleon's wars were evil.

Now. Humans have a funny thing, and try to declare that something is evil, no matter what. And that is self-delusional. Moral relativism works, but only when you think about it long and hard enough. Moral absolutism can always be reduced to moral relativism, and further down to pragmatism.

Add to this that moral absolutism is a good vehicle to influence people's behaviour on a mass scale. That is precisely one of the strongest uses of it for religions. And yet forcing absolutism on people is not completely evil for all or for many: it strengthens society's interests, and as such, though it pits individuals' interests against society's, in most social arrangement every member of the society is better off than without. If not everyone is better off than without, the situation is so unstable, that it can't be sustained for long (given a large enough number of society members who are worse off than alone.) Khmer Rouge is one example; turn-of-the-century (from nineteenth to twentieth century) era of absolute oppression and dismarginalization (i.e. a treatment worse than marginalization) of the proletariat was another.

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Re: Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We must do evil.

Post by Greatest I am » Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:34 pm

-1-

I think I agree with all you put.

"moral absolutism is a good vehicle to influence people's behaviour on a mass scale."

Confirm that by giving an example of what you are calling a moral absolute. What moral tenet did you have in mind?

I think all morals are subjective but want to see your examples before I lock in my agreement.

Regards
DL

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Re: Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We must do evil.

Post by -1- » Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:39 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:26 pm
I agree with your definition on the science God of the Gaps. My "so to speak" was intended to convey that.

That is why I spoke of the various theories of the number of dimensions.

My poor writing skills.

Regards
DL
The trick, the only useful trick for good writing is to ask yourself of your written material, "does it make the same sense to someone else as it does for me?"

A lot of English writers fall into the trap of using pronouns without a clear reference of them to their antecedents. This is so because in their thinking process, that later results on a written text, the antecedents' relationships with referring pronouns are automatic for the original thinker.

Another problem which is disappearing, because the language is chaning due to it, in English writing, is the disappearance of the separation between plural and singular. "There's apples and there's oranges", "using pronouns without a clear reference of it to its antecedent" etc.

Other than having valuable thoughts, the only thing one has to look out for when writing a paper, even on a non-professional forum, is proper referencing and proper grammar. If you do that, people will be intimidated by your English, and you will be both revered and feared, for you'll gain a reputation of being an overly erudite person. And in America people fear an educated person... he is A. better than you, B. an affront to your religion, atheists are all smart, C. a possible threat to your values (he may be a communist pinko wife-swapping danger to America; he's educitid, inni? and probably a liberal, for sure an (gasp!) atheist) D. invincible in intellectual debate, and E. possibly a lawyer, the epitome of all evil.

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