Race versus culture

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Londoner
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Londoner » Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:05 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:11 pm
Everyone's 'racist'. Some people are just bigger hypocrites than others. Homicidal nut-jobs are a different matter.
It might be that everyone is racist, just as everyone has a propensity to be violent, or selfish, or scared of the dark. But to try not to act like a racist isn't hypocrisy, it is an attempt to improve oneself by overcoming a primitive and irrational trait.

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Re: Race versus culture

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:48 pm

Londoner wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:05 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:11 pm
Everyone's 'racist'. Some people are just bigger hypocrites than others. Homicidal nut-jobs are a different matter.
It might be that everyone is racist, just as everyone has a propensity to be violent, or selfish, or scared of the dark. But to try not to act like a racist isn't hypocrisy, it is an attempt to improve oneself by overcoming a primitive and irrational trait.
It depends how you are defining 'racist'. Humans tend to want to live around those of similar cultural background and value systems. If that makes them 'racist' then the PC thought-police had better start stamping their own foreheads.

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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Londoner » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:06 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:48 pm
It depends how you are defining 'racist'. Humans tend to want to live around those of similar cultural background and value systems. If that makes them 'racist' then the PC thought-police had better start stamping their own foreheads.
By all means, but racism would be the idea that a cultural and value system is biologically determined by skin colour, or some other physical feature.

If you start off with that idea, then a white person looks at a black one and assumes they cannot possibly have a similar cultural and value system. Then confirmation bias does the rest; you will note all the ways in which you are different and overlook all the ways in which you are identical.

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Re: Race versus culture

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:20 am

Londoner wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:06 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:48 pm
It depends how you are defining 'racist'. Humans tend to want to live around those of similar cultural background and value systems. If that makes them 'racist' then the PC thought-police had better start stamping their own foreheads.
By all means, but racism would be the idea that a cultural and value system is biologically determined by skin colour, or some other physical feature.

If you start off with that idea, then a white person looks at a black one and assumes they cannot possibly have a similar cultural and value system. Then confirmation bias does the rest; you will note all the ways in which you are different and overlook all the ways in which you are identical.
People can 'assume' what they want, and choose to live where they want. They are going to do that no matter what the PC thought police 'think' on the matter. Whole countries evolve their own cultural identity and character, depending on which culture is dominant. No one really gives a damn what biologists have to say about it.

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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Londoner » Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:21 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:20 am
People can 'assume' what they want, and choose to live where they want. They are going to do that no matter what the PC thought police 'think' on the matter. Whole countries evolve their own cultural identity and character, depending on which culture is dominant. No one really gives a damn what biologists have to say about it.
I am puzzled at these references to 'the PC thought police'. If the thought they are policing is 'that skin colour does not code for cultures and values', then the police aren't being PC, they are simply being rational. It is no more PC than saying that there is no need to sacrifice a virgin to ensure the harvest, or women are not inferior to men - no matter how 'natural' or traditional it once was to think that way.

As you say, whole countries evolve their own cultural identity and character, but it does not follow that this character is either homogeneous or fixed. The USA had slaves for a long time, now it doesn't. Everyone agreed that homosexuals should be locked up or worse, now they don't. Likewise the status of women has changed. I do not see why racism should be any different.

I am not clear whether your position is that people are racists, even though you accept it is irrational, and you are simply pessimistic about whether that will change. Or whether you think 'the PC thought police' have no business challenging racism. If it is the second, then I don't think it is the racist 'thoughts' they want to police, it is putting those thoughts into action in a way that is unfair to others. And that makes them just like ordinary policemen, who enforce laws that reflect the values of their society.

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Re: Race versus culture

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:16 pm

Londoner wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:21 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:20 am
People can 'assume' what they want, and choose to live where they want. They are going to do that no matter what the PC thought police 'think' on the matter. Whole countries evolve their own cultural identity and character, depending on which culture is dominant. No one really gives a damn what biologists have to say about it.
I am puzzled at these references to 'the PC thought police'. If the thought they are policing is 'that skin colour does not code for cultures and values', then the police aren't being PC, they are simply being rational. It is no more PC than saying that there is no need to sacrifice a virgin to ensure the harvest, or women are not inferior to men - no matter how 'natural' or traditional it once was to think that way.

As you say, whole countries evolve their own cultural identity and character, but it does not follow that this character is either homogeneous or fixed. The USA had slaves for a long time, now it doesn't. Everyone agreed that homosexuals should be locked up or worse, now they don't. Likewise the status of women has changed. I do not see why racism should be any different.

I am not clear whether your position is that people are racists, even though you accept it is irrational, and you are simply pessimistic about whether that will change. Or whether you think 'the PC thought police' have no business challenging racism. If it is the second, then I don't think it is the racist 'thoughts' they want to police, it is putting those thoughts into action in a way that is unfair to others. And that makes them just like ordinary policemen, who enforce laws that reflect the values of their society.
I don't know what your point is either. That people will suddenly become 'unracist' because some biologist says that there's 'no such thing as race' without even defining what 'race' is (the thing that there's no such thing as)? What about American 'white supremacists'? They are always ranting about Jews, yet Jews are quite often fair-haired and blue-eyed, just what the supremacists claim to love. When people 'offend' the supposed darlings of the ''Progressive'' lobby i.e. muslims, they are called 'racists' (and here was I thinking that religion was separate from skin colour). The ''Progressive'' lobby would have been much more productively occupied putting an end to the mass murder of muslims in their own countries, instead of going along with the pro-war propaganda that permeates everything these days. For instance does anyone over there object to your moronic celebrities and their permanent red-poppy-wearing? Or criticise Harry for the vile little warmongering twit that he is? Speaking out against something as powerful and emotive as ignorant but ingrained war sentimentality is something they wouldn't dream of doing. Skin colour is only one small aspect of a much bigger and more complex picture and social evolutionary study. To keep harping on that 'there's no such thing as race' is just simplistic, pointless, shallow, and frankly annoying (rather like the PC). The PC are basically disingenuous cowards and hypocrites who are only interested in imposing their own warped and simplistic dogma, often via the school system (how brave, to impose their politics on society's most vulnerable. Reminds me of another political movement.....)

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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Arising_uk » Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:18 pm

Does this "progressive' thing exist in the UK? Or is it just a Yank or Aussie thing? Are we just talking about the twitterati et al? If so who gives a shit what the social medjits think?

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Re: Race versus culture

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:23 pm

Arising_uk wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:18 pm
Does this "progressive' thing exist in the UK? Or is it just a Yank or Aussie thing? Are we just talking about the twitterati et al? If so who gives a shit what the social medjits think?
Are you serious? Perhaps you live your life on social media but PC has been around for a darn sight longer than twitter or Facebook. It started in the US, but as you well know, American 'culture' has a habit of infiltrating everywhere. Humans are idea-sharing organisms--for better or worse. It started in the US, yet just look at the rampant racism over there. I find it hilarious that the most rabidly PC always deny that it exists. It's funny how often something is only visible from the outside :)

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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Londoner » Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:57 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:16 pm

I don't know what your point is either. That people will suddenly become 'unracist' because some biologist says that there's 'no such thing as race' without even defining what 'race' is (the thing that there's no such thing as)?
I don't know about 'suddenly', but I don't see why they are condemned to continue to believe in something that makes no sense. That somebody with a black skin, or eyelids that fold in a particular way, is a fellow human seems easier to take in than that the earth is not flat. Maybe, racism is a trait in humans that can always boil up when societies and individuals are pressured, just they might turn to religion, or become superstitious, but we need not construct a society around that tendency.

It is surely up to the racists to define their racism. If they can come up with something that makes sense then fine, for example if it is just a synonym for 'ethnicity' that would be OK, but rather pointless since we already have the word 'ethnicity'.
What about American 'white supremacists'? They are always ranting about Jews, yet Jews are quite often fair-haired and blue-eyed, just what the supremacists claim to love. When people 'offend' the supposed darlings of the ''Progressive'' lobby i.e. muslims, they are called 'racists' (and here was I thinking that religion was separate from skin colour). The ''Progressive'' lobby would have been much more productively occupied putting an end to the mass murder of muslims in their own countries, instead of going along with the pro-war propaganda that permeates everything these days. For instance does anyone over there object to your moronic celebrities and their permanent red-poppy-wearing? Or criticise Harry for the vile little warmongering twit that he is? Speaking out against something as powerful and emotive as ignorant but ingrained war sentimentality is something they wouldn't dream of doing. Skin colour is only one small aspect of a much bigger and more complex picture and social evolutionary study. To keep harping on that 'there's no such thing as race' is just simplistic, pointless, shallow, and frankly annoying (rather like the PC). The PC are basically disingenuous cowards and hypocrites who are only interested in imposing their own warped and simplistic dogma, often via the school system (how brave, to impose their politics on society's most vulnerable. Reminds me of another political movement.....)
You are plainly angry about something, but I can't work out what.

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Re: Race versus culture

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:14 pm

Londoner wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:57 am


You are plainly angry about something, but I can't work out what.
I was waiting for something along those lines :D

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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Belinda » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:40 pm

Veggy I too am trying to find out what exactly you are opposed to.

You have provided many illustrations but you don't generalise the connection between all your illustrations . You are so passionate that I remain convinced that you must connect those experiences of yours.
So far, I gather that you want to see what is the case with impartiality. I also infer that you want to exclude propaganda from establishment sources.

Londoner has explained , unless I am mistaken, that racism is not what people feel but what they do.

Veggy, maybe you are saying that in order to get people including ourselves to be at peace with others we have to eliminate cant then I'd agree.

Cant:noun
1.
insincere, especially conventional expressions of enthusiasm for high ideals, goodness, or piety.

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Re: Race versus culture

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:52 pm

Good grief. And I thought my writing was quite clear and succinct. This is like trying to reason with evolution-deniers.

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Re: Race versus culture

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:01 pm

Belinda wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:40 pm

Londoner has explained , unless I am mistaken, that racism is not what people feel but what they do.

I think you are mistaken, or I missed it. Why do you think I use the term 'thought-police'? I'm not going to repeat myself. If people don't get it then they don't get it.

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