I of course see the difference and a contradiction.henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:37 pm "Aren't you a part of deterministic world?"
Yes, a deterministic world, not a determined world.
You do see the difference, yeah?
Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?
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Re: Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?
What's the contradiction?
Re: Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?
The contradiction is that deterministic world is not determined.
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Deterministic, in context, means, (as example) gravity works across all environments consistently.
Determined means, in context, (as example) I'm always gonna fall on my ass when I slip on ice (which simply isn't the case).
In a determined world: the dominoes always fall.
In a deterministic world: I can reach down and interrupt the fall.
I choose; the domino can't.
Determined means, in context, (as example) I'm always gonna fall on my ass when I slip on ice (which simply isn't the case).
In a determined world: the dominoes always fall.
In a deterministic world: I can reach down and interrupt the fall.
I choose; the domino can't.
Re:
Yes.henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:58 pm Deterministic, in context, means, (as example) gravity works across all environments consistently.
No. Determined means that you get always the same final state given the same initial state.henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:58 pm Determined means, in context, (as example) I'm always gonna fall on my ass when I slip on ice (which simply isn't the case).
Yes.
That could be just a reflex.henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:58 pm In a deterministic world: I can reach down and interrupt the fall.
Well, choosing could be an illusion. You need to prove how that is possible in a deterministic world.
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"Determined means that you get always the same final state given the same initial state."
Exactly. My point is: I determine my state, not the ice.
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"That could be just a reflex"
Or it could be what I intend to do.
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"choosing could be an illusion."
Or it could be real.
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"You need to prove how that is possible in a deterministic world."
I think you need to prove how what seems obvious to me and you (that we each act and self-direct in the world instead of merely react and get directed) is somehow a fiction.
Exactly. My point is: I determine my state, not the ice.
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"That could be just a reflex"
Or it could be what I intend to do.
#
"choosing could be an illusion."
Or it could be real.
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"You need to prove how that is possible in a deterministic world."
I think you need to prove how what seems obvious to me and you (that we each act and self-direct in the world instead of merely react and get directed) is somehow a fiction.
Re:
What is "I" in a deterministic world? How an "I" which is manifestation of brain activity could decide on subject matter?henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:12 pm "Determined means that you get always the same final state given the same initial state."
Exactly. My point is: I determine my state, not the ice.
#
"That could be just a reflex"
Or it could be what I intend to do.
#
"choosing could be an illusion."
Or it could be real.
#
"You need to prove how that is possible in a deterministic world."
I think you need to prove how what seems obvious to me and you (that we each act and self-direct in the world instead of merely react and get directed) is somehow a fiction.
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'I', referring to me. is the on-going, discrete, organic event sitting at a terminal typing these words. I am comprised of chemicals and electricity, organized in such a way as to promote self (awareness)/identity/'I'ness.
I am not (simply) brain activity.
That's like sayin' water is just hydrogen and oxygen (technically true, but waaaay off the mark).
I am not (simply) brain activity.
That's like sayin' water is just hydrogen and oxygen (technically true, but waaaay off the mark).
Re:
That I agree. How the "I" as you explained could affect the state of affair if itself is the result of state of affair?henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:27 pm 'I', referring to me. is the on-going, discrete, organic event sitting at a terminal typing these words. I am comprised of chemicals and electricity, organized in such a way as to promote self (awareness)/identity/'I'ness.
"I" is the result of brain activity. It is a conscious state and all conscious state are physical state, meaning that they are result of matter activity.
Water is just a matter (hydrogen and oxygen) state.henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:27 pm That's like sayin' water is just hydrogen and oxygen (technically true, but waaaay off the mark).
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"Water is just a matter (hydrogen and oxygen) state."
Yep, and more, and you know this, just as you know you're a free will.
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"How the "I" as you explained could affect the state of affair if itself is the result of state of affair?"
I am my own 'state of affairs" influenced by externals, but never determined by them.
I am not a robot or a domino. I begin and end causal chains and am not merely a link in one.
Yep, and more, and you know this, just as you know you're a free will.
#
"How the "I" as you explained could affect the state of affair if itself is the result of state of affair?"
I am my own 'state of affairs" influenced by externals, but never determined by them.
I am not a robot or a domino. I begin and end causal chains and am not merely a link in one.
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Re:
"Water is just a matter (hydrogen and oxygen) state."
Yep, and more, and you know this, just as you know you're a free will.
#
"How the "I" as you explained could affect the state of affair if itself is the result of state of affair?"
I am my own 'state of affairs" influenced by externals, but never determined by them.
I am not a robot or a domino. Like you, I begin and end causal chains and am not merely a link in one.
Yep, and more, and you know this, just as you know you're a free will.
#
"How the "I" as you explained could affect the state of affair if itself is the result of state of affair?"
I am my own 'state of affairs" influenced by externals, but never determined by them.
I am not a robot or a domino. Like you, I begin and end causal chains and am not merely a link in one.
Re:
That is exactly the problem. How a bulk of matter could start and end causal chain when itself is subjected to causality?henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:42 pm I am not a robot or a domino. I begin and end causal chains and am not merely a link in one.
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"That is exactly the problem. How a bulk of matter could start and end causal chain when itself is subjected to causality?"
No, the problem is that you dismiss what you know to be true (you are a free will) in favor of a construct (determinism) that can't explain 'you'.
That is: I say determinism is wrong cuz it can't explain 'me'; you say 'you' are wrong cuz you don't fit neatly into determinism.
No, the problem is that you dismiss what you know to be true (you are a free will) in favor of a construct (determinism) that can't explain 'you'.
That is: I say determinism is wrong cuz it can't explain 'me'; you say 'you' are wrong cuz you don't fit neatly into determinism.
Re:
So you are not a materialist?henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:51 pm "That is exactly the problem. How a bulk of matter could start and end causal chain when itself is subjected to causality?"
No, the problem is that you dismiss what you know to be true (you are a free will) in favor of a construct (determinism) that can't explain 'you'.
That is: I say determinism is wrong cuz it can't explain 'me'; you say 'you' are wrong cuz you don't fit neatly into determinism.
Re: Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?
Yes, that's what I am saying, except that I assert that there are new ideas.
New ideas are predictable by super mind (which I don't believe exists, but it's a matter of belief, nothing more), not because ideas are not new, but because the new ideas are built on some predicates. They are new, but they are caused.