davidm wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:29 am
uwot wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:12 pmWhat we know is that processes happen less frequently the greater the speed, and/or the stronger the gravitational field. We know that, because we can see it. What we don't know, is the mechanism that causes it.
I guess, at the risk of giving some here the chance to cackle that relativity defenders can’t agree among themselves...
What do you mean by 'cackle', here?
The fact that most people do not agree about most things is nothing unusual, so the fact that you four will NOT agree on ALL aspects in this discussion about 'relativity' is NOT unusual AT ALL.
uwot wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:52 amFuck 'em.
Is that a good argument or point, which was based on solid logical reasoning?
uwot wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:52 amThe point I've been trying to make is that we agree that clocks, and all other physical processes, slow down the faster the 'frame' they are in is moving and/or the stronger the gravitational well it is in.
That point, which you have been trying to make, is obvious, and has always been noticed, by some of us. Nothing to disagree with there.
uwot wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:52 amI would suggest that part of the reason we agree, is that we are familiar with the results of experiments and observations that demonstrate, beyond any doubt, that is what happens.
Does believing that some thing is what happens, which to you has already been demonstrated, beyond
ANY doubt, mean that you are at all open to the fact that this maybe is NOT what actually happens?
If so, then great.
If not, then great also.
Your honest answer is all I am seeking.
uwot wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:52 am It is only the real headbangers who insist that every test that demonstrates time dilation is wrong, or that everyone who reports such a test is part of a conspiracy or deluded mob.
Do you think there is any one here in this thread that insists that every test that demonstrates time dilation is wrong, or that every one who reports such a test is part of a conspiracy or deluded mob? If so, then will you name the ones you think are the "real headbangers"?
uwot wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:52 amWe also agree that relativity quantifies that dilation to a very high degree of accuracy, for the simple reason that it demonstrably does.
If it has been demonstrated, beyond ANY doubt, then there is nothing that could be disagreed with or disputed here. But why the necessity to talk about it? One could make the suggestion that you are sounding like one of the mob that insisted that the sun revolves around the earth, because it has been demonstrated, beyond ANY doubt, for the simple reason that it demonstrably does. Just look at what happens (by what the sun demonstrably does), and you will see the demonstrable truth, some of them might say.
uwot wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:52 amdavidm wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:29 am...I would have to disagree with this.
We can disagree about the mechanism all day long; it makes no difference to the fact that we accept the findings of experiments and the efficacy of the mathematical treatment.
But the point made was NOT about that you four agreed on some points. The point made, through questioning, was, Do you four all agree on ALL points regarding relativity?
uwot wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:52 amdavidm wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:29 amWe do know the mechanism that drives time dilation. Your yourself have explained it.
It’s the invariance of the speed of light.
That's not actually how I have explained it. I have made the point that the speed of light, as treated in special relativity, is invariant only in an idealised vacuum that we know does not exist, at least not in our universe.
How do you KNOW that a true vacuum does not exist?
What or who do you mean by 'our' when you say, "in our universe"?
And, what is the relationship between 'our' and 'universe'?
When you attempt to speak for 'we', who is the 'we' that you are trying to speak for?