How to exit the religious mess!

[Dontaskme]

No you don't see them, you know thoughts, but you can't see them.

Of course I can, they are the sequences of complexes of images, sounds, feelings, etc that thoughts consist of.

You say you can see a 'thought' as an image, ...so if I point to an image and ask you to identify that image as to what is it? will you just say it is a 'thought' ?

and then say the same for every image? ..is that it then, nothing would have a label, the label for every image would be the same in that every conceivable image would have the label 'thought' ?

Do you not see how weird this is starting to sound?

.

Also, you say a thought is seen as a feeling..and yet no one can see a feeling, same for sound, have you ever seen sound?

.

Sounds like you are posting from desperation to make your point look more valid here, I don't understand why people have to fight against obvious truths that are staring them in the face.
Why can't we just be really honest with ourselves about the truth of reality instead of twisting things round all the time, mixing apples with oranges just to fit into our own unique model of how we think it is?

Reality is not what thought thinks it is, no matter how you would like to believe it is.

Let me put it like this....you know a sound, but you cannot see a sound.

You know a thought, but you cannot see a thought.

You know a feeling, but you cannot see a feeling.

You know pain, but you cannot see pain.

Do you get the gist?

This knowing, is awareness....and without it, nothing could be known. And even awareness cannot be seen, it is known in the experiencing by awareness alone.



.

[surreptitious57]

Why cannot we just be really honest with ourselves about the truth of reality instead of twisting things
round all the time mixing apples with oranges just to fit into our own unique model of how we think it is

I try to be as honest as I can by trying to see reality as it actually is rather than how I want it to be but I am
not always successful in being detached and so there is always more I can do to in order to achieve this state

[Belinda]

Dontaskme, if you had taken care to attend to the context you would see that I like obstreperous.But use it alongside reason.

By "reason" I mean take time to see the evidence. Earlier, you mentioned a broken leg. The pain of a wounded leg does not enter awareness unless there is a neural pathway, a physical neural pathway, from the wound to the brain/mind. This state of lack of feeling can happen when the neural pathway is badly damaged, and such neural damage can cause further inadvertent self damage through neglect.

There is also the reflex arc which allows us to avoid some pain without even thinking . What happens then is that the spinal cord nerve , not the brain/mind, receives the pain signal, and the motor nerves arc back and move the hand, foot or whatever from the painful stimulus.

Thoughts, and physical events such as neuronal action, are real and influence our thinking.

[Dontaskme]

Dontaskme, if you had taken care to attend to the context you would see that I like obstreperous.But use it alongside reason.

Sorry for lack of attention to context, but I have a severe word dyslexia, bipolar and asperger syndrome. I couldn't understand the adult intellect while growing up, and from a very young age turned inward to allow my own teacher to teach me about my place in the world and who I was. I'm a child inside, but I am tough and can look after myself, I just can't relate to adults and their way of thinking, but I was very good at seeing though their lies.

.

[Dontaskme]

Why cannot we just be really honest with ourselves about the truth of reality instead of twisting things
round all the time mixing apples with oranges just to fit into our own unique model of how we think it is

I try to be as honest as I can by trying to see reality as it actually is rather than how I want it to be but I am
not always successful in being detached and so there is always more I can do to in order to achieve this state

I like you.

BECAUSE YOU ARE HUMBLE AND PIOUS AND HONEST.

[Belinda]

Dontaskme wrote:

Sorry for lack of attention to context, but I have a severe word dyslexia, bipolar and asperger syndrome. I couldn't understand the adult intellect while growing up, and from a very young age turned inward to allow my own teacher to teach me about my place in the world and who I was. I'm a child inside, but I am tough and can look after myself, I just can't relate to adults and their way of thinking, but I was very good at seeing though their lies.

I would have thought that internet discussions are excellent for anybody who would suffer from face to face meetings.

I knew someone very well who had bad bipolar and who was unfailingly rational and self controlled unless he became hypomanic, The (medication-controlled) depression phase was when he was at his most rational , which was very rational indeed.

Dyslexia I don't know but for what it's worth I cannot detect any word blindness in what you write. Obstreperous aids toughness. It is not good to be vulnerable and emotions do function to keep us safe. But then , so does reflection function to keep us safe.

[Dontaskme]

Dontaskme wrote:

Sorry for lack of attention to context, but I have a severe word dyslexia, bipolar and asperger syndrome. I couldn't understand the adult intellect while growing up, and from a very young age turned inward to allow my own teacher to teach me about my place in the world and who I was. I'm a child inside, but I am tough and can look after myself, I just can't relate to adults and their way of thinking, but I was very good at seeing though their lies.

I would have thought that internet discussions are excellent for anybody who would suffer from face to face meetings.

I knew someone very well who had bad bipolar and who was unfailingly rational and self controlled unless he became hypomanic, The (medication-controlled) depression phase was when he was at his most rational , which was very rational indeed.

Dyslexia I don't know but for what it's worth I cannot detect any word blindness in what you write. Obstreperous aids toughness. It is not good to be vulnerable and emotions do function to keep us safe. But then , so does reflection function to keep us safe.

PRONOUNCING WORDS IS HARD FOR ME...UNDERSTANDING THEM IS HARD FOR ME. I DONT ALWAYS GET WHAT PEOPLE ARE SAYING TO ME. I CAN HOLD MY OWN THOUGH SIMPLY BECAUSE I CAN SEE STRAIGHT THROUGH THE LIES . I KNOW TRUTH SO I'M ABLE TO RECOGNISE LIE INSTANTLY. I'M NOT VERY GOOD AT DISTINGUISHING THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SARCASM, OR BEING JOKING, OR WHETHER SOMEONE IS BEING SERIOUS WITH ME OR NOT. I TEND TO TAKE WHAT THEY SAY AS BEING REALLY MEANT.

THE THING IS..ITS NOT UP TO YOU TO DETECT IN ME WHAT I KNOW TO BE TRUE MYSELF..I'M THE ONE THAT KNOWS ME AND LIVES WITH ME AND ONLY I KNOW WHICH WAY I SEE THINGS. I DO NOT SUPPRESS MY FEELINGS IF THEY WANT OUT ..I LET THEM OUT AND I DONT CARE, ITS WHAT KEEPS ME HEALTHY AND SANE.


SORRY FOR THE CAPITALS MY CAT HAS WRAPPED ITSELF AROUND MY ARMS AND GONE TO SLEEP ON ME SO ITS DIFFICULT TO TYPE.

.

[Belinda]

Dontaskme wrote:

I'M NOT VERY GOOD AT DISTINGUISHING THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SARCASM, OR BEING JOKING, OR WHETHER SOMEONE IS BEING SERIOUS WITH ME OR NOT. I TEND TO TAKE WHAT THEY SAY AS BEING REALLY MEANT.

I understand. Thanks.

[Dontaskme]

Dontaskme wrote:

I'M NOT VERY GOOD AT DISTINGUISHING THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SARCASM, OR BEING JOKING, OR WHETHER SOMEONE IS BEING SERIOUS WITH ME OR NOT. I TEND TO TAKE WHAT THEY SAY AS BEING REALLY MEANT.

I understand. Thanks.

[Dontaskme]

I would have thought that internet discussions are excellent for anybody who would suffer from face to face meetings.

That is a very beautiful thing to say. And I agree.

Harbal asked if I was okay last night in a PM..which was sweet of him...he highlighted something about internet communication with strangers can sometimes bring out the worse in us because we are hiding behind our false avatars and that the anonymity make it feel safer to express our real feelings.

.

[surreptitious57]

he highlighted something about internet communication with strangers can sometimes bring out the worse in
us because we are hiding behind our false avatars and that the anonymity make it feel safer to express our real feelings

I have never had much credence with the notion that anonymity gives one more freedom to say what they really mean
Now this may be true for some but I think on rational and philosophy forums everyone is generally respectful of others

I have no real reason to talk and much prefer reading or writing anyway since I think they
are more productive means of communication and so forums are an ideal medium for me

[Arising_uk]

You say you can see a 'thought' as an image, ...

No, I say I can see or understand or experience, if you prefer, thoughts as a sequence of complexes of images, sounds, feelings, etc, (although by an' large smells and tastes do escape me).

...so if I point to an image and ask you to identify that image as to what is it? will you just say it is a 'thought' ?

Depends what the image is of?

and then say the same for every image? ..is that it then, nothing would have a label, the label for every image would be the same in that every conceivable image would have the label 'thought' ?

Do you not see how weird this is starting to sound?

I'm not quite sure what you are saying but I find it ironic as this is pretty much what you say about concepts?

Also, you say a thought is seen as a feeling..and yet no one can see a feeling, same for sound, have you ever seen sound?

No, I say thought is a sequence of complexes of images, sounds, feelings which you can watch and whilst you do you can hear sounds and feel the feelings.

Sounds like you are posting from desperation to make your point look more valid here, I don't understand why people have to fight against obvious truths that are staring them in the face. ...

Such as?

Why can't we just be really honest with ourselves about the truth of reality instead of twisting things round all the time, mixing apples with oranges just to fit into our own unique model of how we think it is? ...

Like yourself?

Reality is not what thought thinks it is, no matter how you would like to believe it is.

What do you think thought is?

Let me put it like this....you know a sound, but you cannot see a sound.

I can if I can sight-read music.

You know a thought, but you cannot see a thought.

I disagree but I'd like to know what a thought is to you?

Although I do agree that what thoughts actually are is different from how I understand them as at base thoughts are, in the main, activation patterns in a neuronal net.

You know a feeling, but you cannot see a feeling.

You know pain, but you cannot see pain.

You can't recognise emotions in another?

Do you get the gist?

I do, I just think it largely wrong.

This knowing, is awareness....and without it, nothing could be known. And even awareness cannot be seen, it is known in the experiencing by awareness alone.

I don't disagree, I just disagree with you about where it comes from and lives.

[Dontaskme]

DAM wrote:

You know a thought, but you cannot see a thought.

What do you think thought is?

The thought I am a person is known. The I am a person thought produces the illusion of a thinker, but the thinker doesn't exist separate from the thought and the thoughts are spontaneously self-arising from nowhere... The thinker which is just a thought because the thought creates the thinker doesn't make thoughts happen or come, they appear out of nowhere uninvited. Thoughts are perceived in the perceiving of the thought but the perceiver cannot be percieved for it is already that which is perceiving. There is no thinker, so no one to know what a thought is, but only to know the thought as it is perceived by the perceiver that cannot be seen only known as perceived.

You asked for it!

I disagree but I'd like to know what a thought is to you?

If you don't understand what I've said...read it 100 times over.

.

[Dontaskme]

DAM wrote:

Why can't we just be really honest with ourselves about the truth of reality instead of twisting things round all the time, mixing apples with oranges just to fit into our own unique model of how we think it is? ...

Like yourself?

There is no thinker...only the thought there is a thinker.....see last post.

So yes of course we are only ever talking with ourselves.

The thoughts appear and are known as they appear in awareness which cannot be seen...it is the seeing.

.

[Dontaskme]

DAM wrote:

You know a feeling, but you cannot see a feeling.

You know pain, but you cannot see pain.

You can't recognise emotions in another?

No one has seen an emotion, whether it's appearing in this one here or that one over there.

Emotions are known and felt by the only knowing there is which is awareness which cannot be seen or felt for it is what's seeing and feeling.





.